Round balls in a '61 enfield short rifle?

[XTR]

I find myself living in the frozen northern half of New Hampshire these days. Up here there is a winter event known as a Primitive Biathalon, the idea is basically to slog around a course in wood frame snow shoes and shoot some steel targets ever so often using a non-inline muzzle loader. They take time off of your total for hits. (shooting seems to be in the 35 to 50 yard range)

I have a P-H '61 short rifle (Musketoon) that I currently shoot for fun with cast minie's and ff or 1.5f (I shoot Swiss and Schutzen, I keep them around for my BPCR). My dilemma is that the rules specify round balls only.

Looking for recommendations and advice?

[Outpost75]

In my original W.J. Jeffery Volunteer Rifle I shot 60 grains of Curtis & Harvey's (1-1/2Fg) with Fiocchi 1cm thick fiber 24-ga. wad, lightly lubricated with lard oil, and loaded naked .600 pure lead ball smacked into muzzle with hammer and short starter, then rammed home.

More accurate than Minies and effective on deer, if a bit slow to load. "Hessian" style loading with lubricated wad was more accurate than trying to patch. Lubricated fiber wad has sweeping action and there is no need to wipe between shots for up to 8-10 shots.

[indian joe]

I find myself living in the frozen northern half of New Hampshire these days. Up here there is a winter event known as a Primitive Biathalon, the idea is basically to slog around a course in wood frame snow shoes and shoot some steel targets ever so often using a non-inline muzzle loader. They take time off of your total for hits. (shooting seems to be in the 35 to 50 yard range)

I have a P-H '61 short rifle (Musketoon) that I currently shoot for fun with cast minie's and ff or 1.5f (I shoot Swiss and Schutzen, I keep them around for my BPCR). My dilemma is that the rules specify round balls only.

Looking for recommendations and advice?

It will work - get the right size ball and a thin patch, not too much powder, the musketoons are a 48twist? (I think) - my son shoots ball in a two bander spagetti gun - same twist - quite accurate .

[XTR]

In my original W.J. Jeffery Volunteer Rifle I shot 60 grains of Curtis & Harvey's (1-1/2Fg) with Fiocchi 1cm thick fiber 24-ga. wad, lightly lubricated with lard oil, and loaded naked .600 pure lead ball smacked into muzzle with hammer and short starter, then rammed home.

More accurate than Minies and effective on deer, if a bit slow to load. "Hessian" style loading with lubricated wad was more accurate than trying to patch. Lubricated fiber wad has sweeping action and there is no need to wipe between shots for up to 8-10 shots.

Were you are loading a .600 ball in a .577? That probably takes a coupla whacks. Hard was it to start those?

It will work - get the right size ball and a thin patch, not too much powder, the musketoons are a 48twist? (I think) - my son shoots ball in a two bander spagetti gun - same twist - quite accurate .

Do you think a .570 ball is the answer when patching?

[Outpost75]

Were you are loading a .600 ball in a .577? That probably takes a coupla whacks. Hard was it to start those?

Do you think a .570 ball is the answer when patching?

YES!

Short starter, mallet, one whack to get into muzzle, once engraved choke up on ramrod and it goes down. Remember that .577 Minie not groove size, but bore size and its hollow base must expand to fit.

Use .562" in the breech-loading Snider.

If I were to try patched ball I would use .575 ball and 0.011" muslin pocket drill loaded with mallet and short starter. Naked .600 ball with fiber wad over powder is easier and quicker.

Possibly could try .570 with heavy pillow ticking, but my experience has been that if a patched ball loads "easy" it won't be accurate and will probably blow patches.

The .600 naked ball will stand up to 100 grains of powder if you want to shoot moose or elk.

[curator]

I too have used Outpost75's suggested .600 pure lead round ball with a 24 gauge over powder wad in my P/H 2-band Enfield rifle with great success. It is not that difficult to load with a small rubber mallet and a short starter. Once it is engraved in the rifling it slides easily to the breech. Accuracy is as good or better than a patched .575 round ball. I had not thought about using a a lubed fiber wad--I'll have to try that next time I have that gun at the range.

[indian joe]

YES!

Short starter, mallet, one whack to get into muzzle, once engraved choke up on ramrod and it goes down. Remember that .577 Minie not groove size, but bore size and its hollow base must expand to fit.

Use .562" in the breech-loading Snider.

If I were to try patched ball I would use .575 ball and 0.011" muslin pocket drill loaded with mallet and short starter. Naked .600 ball with fiber wad over powder is easier and quicker.

Possibly could try .570 with heavy pillow ticking, but my experience has been that if a patched ball loads "easy" it won't be accurate and will probably blow patches.

The .600 naked ball will stand up to 100 grains of powder if you want to shoot moose or elk.

GUYS!!!! read his post - its a woods walk on snowshoes - needs something that works easy without carting half the workshop around with him.

570 ball and a thin patch will probably work

unless the parker hale is bored considerably bigger than the spagetti guns a 575 ball might not work - try it in a fouled bore and see !

we use a 562 ball and ticking patch in a Zoli mississippi rifle - shoots great -

I disagree with outpost 75 - been shooting accurate "easy" round ball loads for 30 years - yeah if you blow patches accuracy is gone = too much powder - leave the mallet in the workshop - the need of it is another of those blackpowder myths - like loading a flinter with the vent plugged with a feather - huge cool factor but serves no useful purpose.

[bob208]

I have a early navy arms 1803 harpers ferry. the barrel was rifled for mini balls. I have shot round ball only in it with no problems. I use a .562 ball and a .018 patch. smaller ball and thicker patch makes it easier to load.

[XTR]

Revisiting this idea, haven’t done it yet. I can see how I’d end up with a couple of molds to get this working. Maybe BACO or someone has balls I can order to try before I order 3 molds to see what works.

I do think that for this game not carrying a hammer might be the way to go.

[Wayne Smith]

Yeah, especially if you are loading in three feet of snow! I can't imagine you could find a surface to ground your gun against to reliably load with a mallet.

[Eddie Southgate]

Not sure how they compare but my Zoli Zouaves both shoot minies and round balls about the same with 55 grains of 2f .

[varsity07840]

Keep in mind that true Parker Hales have progressive depth rifling. A patched ball that's a tight fit at the muzzle will be loose at the breech end. A lubed 20 ga fiber cushion wad over the powder wad will prevent blown patches.

[longbow]

Way back in the 70's I had a Parker Hale Musketoon and used a 0.575" ball with cloth thickness that allowed use if short starter and ramrod. Nothing fancy required and it worked fine... well enough for me anyway.

Longbow

[fgd135]

Revisiting this idea, haven’t done it yet. I can see how I’d end up with a couple of molds to get this working. Maybe BACO or someone has balls I can order to try before I order 3 molds to see what works.

I do think that for this game not carrying a hammer might be the way to go.

Track of the Wolf sells round balls in .562, .570, and .575.
A .562 ball with a thin patch would load quickly and at short ranges should have good accuracy. You could even create paper cartridges, which would load easily with the ramrod; tear open the powder end, pour in the powder, stuff the round ball and paper right on top. If you lube the ball end of the cartridge with bees wax or SPG, etc., it should slide right into the barrel without a starter.

[Wayne Smith]

And in snowshoes you would have to rest the butt on the top of your boot to load. I would suggest you practice this before you try loading in snowshoes.

[Tasbay]

I shoot an Enfield Snider .577, Its the musketoon just with the snider lock upgrade. It shoots .600 Rb very well out of the cartridge and I would say it would shoot the .570 RB with a ticking patch just as well. Oh sitting on 60grains of powder.

[XTR]

Track of the Wolf sells round balls in .562, .570, and .575.
A .562 ball with a thin patch would load quickly and at short ranges should have good accuracy. You could even create paper cartridges, which would load easily with the ramrod; tear open the powder end, pour in the powder, stuff the round ball and paper right on top. If you lube the ball end of the cartridge with bees wax or SPG, etc., it should slide right into the barrel without a starter.

When you load are you dumping the powder then turning the cartridge over like a British style Minnie ball cartridge? Start the ball, tear off the excess, and push?

[Good Cheer]

Hmm, five groove rifling in the cold, short ranges in a timed event, wanting to minimize exertion...
First thing I'd have tried would be a worn out nipple, hard cast ball and pre-cut thick patches dipped in melted lube.

[smithnframe]

Sounds like a good time!

[Nobade]

I get great results shooting balls out of my Miroku 1863 but terrible in the Parker Hale '61. I always figured it was the progressive depth rifling blowing the patches at the breech end. But I have a .600" mould and wad cutter for my trade musket so I'll have to give that a try and see what happens. Thanks for the suggestion!