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Thread: Modified Lee 7/8 oz. Slug Mould ~ Brenneke'ized!

  1. #141
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Looking like a good haul there Petander!

    Santa must be about finished in Finland and on his way here! I hope he saved a box or two for me!

    Merry Christmas to all!

    Longbow

  2. #142
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    Well… it has been a long time coming but I finally made it out to the range with 45 slug loads!

    I loaded up 35 Lee 7/8 oz. slugs both “stock” and modified for Brenneke like cast on hot melt glue tailwad. Plus I took 10 rounds of Modified “Nessler Balls”.

    I have both Lee 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. slug moulds and have tried casting hot melt glue tailwads directly to the Lee slugs but they tend not to bond to the slug when they are at room temperature and fall off frequently. So, I bought spare core pins and made a tapered D-bit to ream the core pins to make a post through the middle of the slug and leave a screw starter hole in it originally for screw on wads but also works to put a short screw in then cast the tailwad around the screw. The core pins Titan sent were both for 1 oz. slug but do fit both size moulds except they make for a slightly heavier than 7/8 oz. slug plus the post adds weight.

    So, for this round of shooting I loaded up 5 stock/as cast Lee 7/8 oz slugs as a “control”. These have shot okay but not great for me before. These were loaded into Claybuster 1 oz. pink wads but were a bit loose fit to bore so they were paper patched with cross strips of printer paper ~ 2 cross strips/1 layer. That snugged the fit up nicely for firm push through the bore.

    In the past I have tried sizing the Lee slugs to remove the taper as they are far more tapered than any wads I have and I thought it better to remove taper then paper patch back up to good fit. So, I sized 10 slugs then patched with 2 pairs of cross strips for two layers of printer paper which gave a good fit to bore.

    I also cast tailwads onto 10 of the modified slugs with center post as cast and another 10 modified slugs were sized then tailwads cast onto them. The unsized slugs got 2 cross patch strips for 1 layer of paper and the sized slugs got 4 cross strips for 2 layers of paper just as the plain slugs got.

    Plus I wanted to try a full bore slug made to behave like the Lee 7/8 oz. slug which likes to roll onto it’s nose. I had a mould I made to make a Balle Nessler clone (Crimean war smoothbore musket bullet) that was tested a couple of years ago with mixed success. I made a new core pin to make a much larger HB cavity and a more nose heavy slug. They cast well and like to be on their noses! I filled the HB with hot melt glue.

    I decided to shoot at 25 yards/m (pretty sure the range is set in meters but…?) because my last couple of trips didn’t yield useful 50m accuracy.

    Guns used:

    • Cooey model 840 single shot smoothbore (0.733” bore); iron sights
    • Mossberg 500 Slugster smoothbore (0.730” bore); iron sights

    Hulls used:
    • Federal Field hulls with paper basewads, 2 ¾”

    Primers used:
    • Federal 209A because that’s all I could get

    Crimps:
    • All crimps were 8 segment fold crimp… but the Lee slugs with attached tailwads were a hair long so crimps pushed part way open on all hulls

    Slugs:
    • Lee 7/8 oz. “stock” cast from ACWW @ 355 grs.
    • Lee 7/8 oz. modified/Brenneke’ized @ 466 grs. total weight with screw and tailwad
    • Pic of modified Lee slug with tailwad:

    • Modified Balle Nessler full bore slugs at 437 grs.
    • Pic of modified Balle Nessler:


    Groups:

    • All groups are 5 shots at 25m

    I used two guns because in the past I have used the Cooey and more recently I have been using the Mossberg but not been getting very good results. I decided I would start with the Cooey to see how groups were then try the Mossberg for comparison. The first 5 unsized Lee slugs were shot from the Cooey then 5 of each batch of 10. The remaining 5 of each batch were then shot from the Mossberg.

    Also to note is that the Mossberg has been upgraded with an MCarbo trigger spring set because as received the trigger was horrendously heavy pull, and the barrel has been shimmed to snug fit in the receiver… it was quite sloppy. The trigger pull is much better now.

    So, enough words! Here are self explanatory pics of targets, slugs and wads:










    Bah! I used too many pics! Limit is 20 per post so I will add 2 more posts to show those pics.

    The random stock Lee slugs are all from Lee slugs are all from Groups 1,2 and 9 but I can't tell which gun they were shot from or whether they were sized of not due to impact damage.

    The random Claybuster wads are all from loads using just Lee slugs with no tailwads so again groups 1,2 and 9.

    The random Winchester wads are from modified/Brenneke’ized Lee slugs.

    The modified Nessler slugs were loaded over a wad column consisting of one 1/8” nitro card wad, a scoop of Cream ‘O Wheat to set crimp height then another 1/8” nitro card wad… no plastic gas seal. That seemed to work well and makes for easy wad column.

    Note that the only group the Mossberg shot better than the Cooey was group 9 using the sized plain Lee slug, the Cooey group with same slug is group 2. I see I forgot to put group 9 group size! It would be about 6”, the squares are 4” on a side.

    I didn’t manage to find slugs or wads after every group shot so really the only slugs positively from a given group were group 1 slugs because there were no other slugs in the berm. After that I am assuming slugs found after each group shot were slugs from that group… I looked for wads and dug for slugs after every 5 shot group but they could have been unearthed by a subsequent slug.

    Take a look at the Claybuster wads… they are a mess! Most gas seals are blown, petals are shredded and the Lee drive key has deeply dented or cut through the bottom of the shotcup. This is why I say to fill the HB cavity with hot melt glue or some form of filler or use a nitro card wad under the slug. I may retry these stock Lee slugs again with glue fill or nitro card wad but since casting a tailwad on seems to be working better that is just as easy and accomplishes more. These slug/wad fits to bore were snug but not tight. I have to think that the cushion leg pushing up into the slug cavity is the main cause for these wads failing so badly. Having said that the Mossberg didn’t do too badly with the sized and patched Lee slugs in group 9.

    Another option is to follow in Ranch Dog’s footsteps and cut the shotcup off the cushion leg and use shotcup only as a sabot then load over hard card wad column.

    I will definitely load some more of the modified Nesslers and give them another go through both guns. I had expected them to do better from the Mossberg because they are exactly bore size for it, they are slightly small in the Cooey but shot much better other than the one flier that may have been me. Of course this small sampling doesn't prove much but does indicate some loads that should be tested again to see if results are repeatable.

    So, for next outing I will be loading Brenneke'ized 7/8 oz. Lee slugs unsized, stock 7/8 oz. Lee slugs unsized either with nitro card wad under or glue filled and more modified Nessler slugs. I will likely try the Ranch Dog approach as well and just use shotcups as sabots over card wad columns.

    I think I got it all there and that it makes sense... I hope.

    Longbow
    Last edited by longbow; 07-15-2022 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Correct pic quantity

  3. #143
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  4. #144
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  5. #145
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    Wow. Quite a report! Blown wads like that destroy accuracy. Those Claybusters you shot are a mess!

    I think I'm just going to use the Lee slugs as intended by Lee, and using Federal wads, for quicky plinking loads sometimes. For anything more serious, I'll use my various Russian slugs, which do quite well. With the current Russian "situation(s)", I am really glad I bought my molds and a ton of the special wads earlier!

    Vettepilot
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 07-15-2022 at 04:05 PM.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
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  6. #146
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    My testing with the Lee slugs has not been all that extensive, though I've read about and studied them exhaustively. There is one confusing thing. Lee's literature states that the "Drive Key" is intended to grip the wad and aid in slug rotation, when used in rifled barrels. However, everything I've ever read states that everyone gets the best accuracy when using a card wad in the cup under the slug. More support and less cocking of the slug I suppose. I'm thinking that might help keep from shredding petals on the way out as well...

    ???

    One interesting thing that I might have picked up here, and that I will test at some point, is a theory that the long jump to the forcing cone of slugs loaded into 2-3/4" hulls shot in 3" chambers hurts accuracy. I will definitely load up some 3" hulls with Lee slugs to test that sometime. I don't think a 3" load is strictly necessary, and will likely just build a modified 2-3/4" wad column to suit.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  7. #147
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    One other note, on building wad columns. I have found the black styrofoam meat cartons from the supermarket to make really useful wads. It's rather thick, and just the right density and springy-ness. I punch wads out of it, and use it to adjust my columns. It compresses some, but has enough resilience to provide wad pressure and to hold crimps really well. I get a lot of good use out of it, along with various other materials to make wads and build columns such as glossy cardboard, etc. Egg cartons make a great thin "shim card" wad too...

    When loading shotshells, my Harbor Freight punch set is a valuable tool to have!!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  8. #148
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    Yes, look at the difference between the Claybuster Win clone and the somewhat heavier duty Winchester wads used for the Brenneke'ized slugs. Not one blown gas seal on the Winchester wads and petals didn't even really open yet accuracy was generally pretty good (from the Cooey). I suspect that the Claybuster wads failed largely because the cushion leg pushed the bottom of the shotcup up into the cavities causing distorion of the gas seal when it slammed into the collapsed cushion. If you look at the Claybuster pics (zoom in) you will see that petals are badly damaged or gone above where the gas seal is blown. A simple nitro card wad should help if not solve that but I am inclined to use Ranch Dog's approach for Lee slugs and just cut the shotcup off the cushion leg then use hard card wad column.

    Glue fill (or whatever fill) in HB slugs has worked well for me too. I am trying to recall why I didn't use a nitro card wad or fill in these slugs but I didn't write my thoughts down at the time. In retrospect I think the idea was to load as per Lee (more or less) with plain slug in wad. These results are typical with what I have experienced before using a variety of wads so no surprise. A difference is that these are realatively mild loads, I have usually used BD or SR4756 and typical slug load data but those loads beat me up at the bench too badly when shooting more than 20 or so. Being somewhat lighter loads I wouldn't have expected to see that much wad damage.

    Anyway, so far I have had better results with modified Lee slugs by adding a tailwad than straight out of the Lee mould. Now that I have a better method for making cast on tailwads it turns out I don't need a screw. By taking a page from Maxx Bear I can just use a punch to put a flair on the drive key rib to create a burr and that will hold the cast on tailwad in place. The original idea of the post and screw was for screw on felt wads but again, I had trouble with wad consistency because the felt squirms a bit during punching so comes out a bit angled on the sides. Inconsistent wads = inconsistent accuracy.

    These new glue tailwads are very consistent. And no, I still haven't tried the LDPE for tailwads but will work around to it. I have saved up some LDPE to try melting and casting.

    I thought about trying to screw a brush wad to the Lee slugs with the post (Russian style) by drilling through the nose but being sub bore diameter there would be a large shoulder of wad around the slug base. I may try that with the modified Nessler though.

    I have ben told the Federal wads are thicker petal and more tapered than the wads I have so they may well be a better fit for Lee slugs. That and their cushion leg is a better design for slugs than Winchester wads I think. I will have to order some to try. I am leaning towards bore diameter slugs now (again!) though.

    How is the back? Still giving you grief I guess. I hope you get that sorted out.

    Longbow

  9. #149
    Boolit Master
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    @Longbow: you and I might have covered this, but what of just drlling out a Lee slug and attaching a wad with a screw through the nose like some of the Russian designs??

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  10. #150
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    You were posting while I was writing there.

    Back is worse and worse. Legs are getting trembly, weak, and painful caused by pinched nerves in the back. Need that operation, but have logistics problems with that...

    How's my bears? And the weather up there? 115 degrees and goin' nowhere but up here...

    :~)

    Vettepilot
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 07-15-2022 at 04:58 PM.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  11. #151
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    Well hey! You're a wizard with molds. Just hog out a Lee mold. Make it straight side, and the od big enough to match the wad. Then screw a wad on!

    To be honest, I haven't done mods I've thought of on the Lee molds 'cause I've been too lazy to crack out the 4 jaw lathe chuck and set it up. Mods using the mill haven't always turned out with perfection...

    Maxx Bear is kind of clever and I like his vids. I wish he would post more.

    Still putzing with some brass shell roundball loads for my AR-410 shotgun here. Finished a few test rounds last night.

    Vettepilot
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 07-15-2022 at 05:00 PM.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  12. #152
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    Sorry to hear about your back. Not good news. You don't want to delay too long with a pinched nerve, that can lead to bad things.

    Yeah, the modified Nessler is really a Lee 7/8 oz. slug on steroids. It weighs 1 oz. in it's present form and rolls right up on it's nose. It casts to 0.729"/0.730" so is a good candidate for a screw on brush wad. Ill try the cast on glue wad first but will have to paper patch it because glue on bare bore doesn't seem like a good diea! The LDPE per Maxx Bear would work fine for bore diameter slug tailwad so maybe I'll try that.

    Bears... we had bears but the neighbour lady doesn't like bears (or turkeys or squirrels, or deer, or birds or anything that lives in the forest) so she calls the conservation and they come and put out traps. So, bears are gone for now. We may get more in the fall.

    Weather... HOT! Maybe not hot for you but hot for us! We are running 35°C so 97°F today. We do, and likely will, see over 40°C this summer so that's breaking 100°F. It is still green though and no fires so far. Last couple of years local forest fires have been a threat. Part of Castlegar was evacuated last year due to a fire.

    I won't get to the range again until at least next week. I'll avoid the range on weekends. I like to shoot by myself and do some excavating to find slugs and walking around to find wads.

    I hope you get your back fixed soon!

    Take care.

    Longbow

  13. #153
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    What a report!

    Thank you, Longbow. Very interesting.

  14. #154
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    Howdy Longbow
    That was near an epic report ! Super photos and real easy to follow. Thank you !
    I read most all these posts and rejoice I have river bottoms to wander and hunt. If I can see anything out beyond 35 yards that is near a miracle. Winter opens that up some but by then the critters are well into the real thick cover.
    Those under 2" groups look like something is working.
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
    Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.

  15. #155
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    Yes, the Cooey seems to like most slug and round ball loads and has led me astray in that I get excellent groups from it then draw the conclusion that is a good load. The Mossberg doesn't think so! Yes, all guns are different and will have preferences but since shimming the Mossberg barrel and upgrading the trigger I would have figured it would respond well to good fitting slugs which these are, especially the Nesslers. That is a bit baffling.

    Of course results here are hardly definitive with just 5 shots of each load from the two guns. I'll load up some more and repeat to see if the results are the same or at least close. If so then I would draw some conclusions of what slugs/loads to work with. Once I have "good" slug loads sorted out I'll try those through the Cooey, Mossberg and my Browning BPS slug guns. It is unlikely they will all shoot the same slug/load well but as long as accuracy is acceptable that will do. I'm not going to work up specific loads for each gun. The Mossberg was intended to be my bear protection gun so if I get reasonable accuracy at moderate range that is good enough and it may come down to shooting round balls. So far I have had best success and consistent groups out to about 50m using round balls.

    My other goal was to have a slug load that would stay under 6" at 100m from smoothbore. That is the main reason I have persevered and tried so many slug variations. Round balls do well out to maybe 70m but groups are opening up fast by then and tend to be unpredictable at 100m. To get there I may well have to work up a "sniper" load for a specific gun which would be okay.

    Yes, I should just buy a rifled gun but I am stubborn and want a smoothbore load that works out to 100m so will try some more. The tinkering is where the fun is!

    Longbow

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    The Mossberg was intended to be my bear protection gun so if I get reasonable accuracy at moderate range that is good enough and it may come down to shooting round balls. So far I have had best success and consistent groups out to about 50m using round balls.


    Longbow
    I'm a big fan of round balls. I bought an old 870 last winter,just because a new rifled barrel was available. Good accuracy up to 75 m. Good being 3" or so.

    The same load from a cylinder barrel Benelli shoots the same 3" group @ 35 meters. Do I need to shoot a bear for protection longer than that? I think not.

    A rifled barrel for your Mossberg might work.

  17. #157
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    Yeah, I have 5 shotguns, and there is not a rifled barrel available for any of them! Bummer, as I would like to experiment with one!

    An adventure with Lee slugs and wads:

    So, on those wads with Lee slugs. First off, it would be really cool if Lee would come up with some updated load data. Most of what's available is outdated and uses components you can't even get anymore. I complained to Lee about this, but who knows if they'll ever get around to an update.

    Around a year ago, I didn't have Federal 12S0 wads and they weren't available to buy. I was able to get some Federal 12S4 wads though, and proceeded to load up some Lee slugs with them by cutting the longer petals of the 12S4 wads down even with the top of the slug. Seems like that would be fine, right??

    Well, accuracy was very poor, and recoil quite stout. I figured the recoil was just due to Lee's loads being rather hot, and that the new (to me) shotgun was quite light plus did not have a recoil pad. It did actually bruise my shoulder though, so yeah, recoil was "stout". The very bad accuracy was another matter.

    Later on at home, I was pondering various loads and fiddling with components. While pushing various wads, slugs, and combinations through my barrel for testing, I grabbed that 12S4 with cut petals/Lee slug combo and gave that a try. I COULD NOT BEGIN TO PUSH IT THROUGH THAT SMOOTH BORE BARREL!! Not even with persuasion from a rubber mallet! That was an "OH CRAP, I actually SHOT this before" moment!! At that point, I knew why those loads had high recoil. That was a sobering moment.

    What I found was that the wad petals are tapered, being thinner at the top by a good amount. With the slug seated in the bottom of the cup, where the petals are thickest, the combo had an O.D. of .742" I believe it was. That does not fit well into a .729" bore!! And with that "drive key" cross bar in the Lee slugs, they don't swage down. I think it's a wonder that I didn't damage my shotgun with those shells.

    Later on, I finally scored some Federal 12S0 wads, and those push through the bore nicely with a Lee slug bottom seated in the cup. Just a firm push by hand does it, as it should be.

    On a different subject, a couple of last hints regarding punching out DIY wads. One, with difficult materials, I often get good results by using the drill press instead of hammering them out. Sharpen the punch well, chuck it up in the drill press, and have at it. If the punch is too big for your chuck, center drill the shaft, tap it to 1/4" x 20, then screw in a 1/4" bolt with the head cut off. Chuck that into the drill press.

    When hammer punching, try this twist. Clamp the punch very tight in a vice, cutting hole upwards of course. Then lay your wad material on top, and whack it with a rubber mallet. It is really amazing how well this works!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X_t43s6-hN0

    Long post; hope that's ok...

    Be safe.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
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  18. #158
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    Yes, round balls are easy to cast, easy to load and seem to be fairly easy to get decent accuracy from to at least 50m... better than many slugs I have tried! RB's should be fine for bear protection.

    So, far in over 40 years of living here I have only had a couple of close and possibly risky encounters with black bears (and a couple when we lived in Kemano on the North coast of B.C.) but the local black bear population is increasing and there are also grizzlies in the high country where I will be picking huckleberries soon. It never hurts to be prepared!

    We get black bears in our yard regularly and they are often quite close but they are not generally aggressive and I don't consider these risky encounters. Stumbling into a big sow with cubs in the bush is a different matter and I have done that. I have seen grizzlies but never been close... and don't want to be!

    I may splurge and either buy a rifled barrel for the Mossberg or preferrably i'd buy a new Mossberg 2 or 3 barrel combo nthat includes a rifled barrel. That is good value for money and prices have been good in the past. Not sure if they are currently available in Canada or what the price is. I see a lot of "out of stock" notifications on websites and prices for most things have skyrocketed!

    I have a couple of gift certificates for Ellwood Epps Sporting Goods. A new or new to ne gun should be in my near future. Time will tell!

    Longbow

  19. #159
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    Vettepilot:

    Yes, I have read that the Federal wads are thicker and more tapered than the Winchester wads and clones I have on hand. I have had wads with thiucker petals but not nearly as tapered as the Lee slugs. I think it was Randy that commented on his Lyman sabot slug cone and taper (same as Lee) fitting well in wads he had.

    So, yes if the wad petals have lots of taper the manufacturers seem to have a given petal tip thickness then taper all the way to the bottom of the shotcup so beep shotcup = thicker petal at the base.

    I doubt you were in danger with those loads as the petals should extrude or shear but there may be a bit of a pressure spike as the slug/wad hits the bore. If you didn't get sticky extraction presure was not likely terribly high.

    I just may try your wad punching ideas! Thanks for that! I have thought about making a rotary punch to put in the drill press and run it while punching. With a good sharp edge that may minimize squirming of felt. I like the idea of felt wads because punching and screwing on is pretty easy and felt is readily available.

    Longbow

  20. #160
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    Yeah, I was thinking of you and your felt when sharing that tip. A benefit with that method too, is that the punch tends to stay sharp better.

    Also try that method of clamping the punch in a vice and whacking the material instead of the punch. It's amazing how well that works.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check