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Thread: Modified Lee 7/8 oz. Slug Mould ~ Brenneke'ized!

  1. #21
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    tomme boy's Avatar
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    The lady that runs the place knows shooters. I get my hard felt there for my muzzleloaders and for loading steel shot. She also has pure lanolin if you need that for mixing lube.

  2. #22
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    I like what your doing. Hopefully they will release from the wads consistently. If that happens you are going to figure out these Lee slugs for us all.

    I can see everyone wanting you to make them a core plug. LOL!!!

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Before I started to use injection molded wads, I toyed with the idea of "stiffen up" ordinary felt or paper mache wads by soaking them in solvent-thinned varnish, but never got around to actually try it.
    Cap'n Morgan

  4. #24
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    If you google VFG cleaning pellets you'll find they make them in every caliber from.17 to 10 ga. I have been using them (unknowingly) for 30 years to clean my Airgun Barrels.

    The regular Felt ones are much cheaper but the gray felt ones are much tougher and are a lot more expensive.

    I guess you could also clean you barrels with them to get more value out of them.

    Brownell's has them, all the other places I saw were in Europe

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  5. #25
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    I saw them in Brownells, one of the most expensive places to get them, and in smaller quantities only.
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

    I will love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

  6. #26
    Boolit Man BigMrTong's Avatar
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    Following along with interest, the idea of modding the lee slug mould and central pin sounds like an interesting project.

  7. #27
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    BigMrTong with your 3D printed tails you seem to be doing very well. I had thought about 3D printing a screw on tail wad but yours work without the screw so... why bother.

    Since I don't have a 3D printer (yet) I have to look at other options. Felt seems like a pretty good option and it turns out I have some really dense felt to try. Unfortunately I couldn't find an appropriate size gasket punch so I'll have to make one. Not a big deal but time consuming.

    Back to your 3D printed tail wads... I've wondered about a sabot system similar to the Sauvestre http://www.sauvestre.com/12-70,1381 or the old BRI slug (now marketed by Winchester) https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/winc...ugs-shotshells which would be even easier. While they say these are for rifled gun only TAOFLEADERMAUS proved different https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TngXWeHKyBw

    Not sure what material costs or how much time it takes to print a sabot but some food for thought there.

    In the meantime, I'll play with my Lee slugs and felt wads.

    Longbow

  8. #28
    Boolit Man BigMrTong's Avatar
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    I did have a go with this type of thing and 3D printed Sabots, but had awful results. I assumed it was because I was using smoothbore, but maybe just an awful design

    My sobot released the bullet / slug fine, but accuracy was shocking.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Is that a 4 petal sabot... kinda like a thick petal shotcup or do the petals/fingers actually separate?

    I'm thinking the Sauvestre and BRI style with 1/2 or 1/3 segment totally separating pieces would be easy to print (maybe makes no difference there) and solid pieces that simply separate so no opening up and maybe/maybe not clean release.

    I think those sabots have to be squeezing that slug pretty hard too to avoid wobble. Being punted in the butt by 10,000 PSI will wake you up! Any give there is is going to give with the pressure and acceleration... sloppy bits need not apply!

    Difficult to do without a 3D printer but not so bad with one. I suppose a mould could be made and a urethane or other resin used to make sabots but I suspect cost and time would be to much for more than testing. Now injection moulded would be a different animal all together! But equipment costs get you there.

    Also, I just noticed. Is that a shorty sabot on top of a cushion leg? I am thinking all one piece with maybe a plastic gas seal under. Longer makes for better guidance and stability in the bore and less chance of tipping in the forcing cone.

    Just my thoughts on it.

    As for my Lee slug experiments, I have found some very dense felt (seems to me I mentioned that but don't see it above) so now have to make a punch because I can't find an appropriate gasket punch locally... or any gasket punch for that matter. A 17mm punch would be about right and 0.672" is what is recommended for 16 ga. which is what I like in the shotcup. I will make on to punch out 0.672" disks of felt and plastic of some kind for washers. Not sure I'll need the washers since this is a wad slug but better to put at least one on the back end anyway.

    Might be delayed until after Christmas now with everything going on and kids coming home for Christmas in the Kootenays. The daughter lives in Edmonton (about 10 to 12 hours drive depending) and son lives in Vancouver (about 8 hour drive).

    Longbow

  10. #30
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    LB I got my Lee 1 oz Slug Mould today, and will try to get some cast up tomorrow. Was the mould pin on your moulds riveted in? That kind of makes it difficult to remove without screwing the mould up.

    I figured that it would be held in place by a small screw? but noooooo!

    I was looking at Russian Moulds from Canada today and one caught my eye. It is the one with 3 mould pins 2 are tapered and the 3rd one is for the "plug in wad." Boolit weights are 522 gr. 536 gr. and 615 gr. The driving bands are .728 It is called the "Paradox Slug," and bares a strong resemblance to the 8 Bore Boolits I spoke of in one post about the 8 bore Paradox Rifle. This slug couldn't be shot thru a choked barrel at all, but for cylinder bore and rifled it would work great.

    I do see an attached wad as being the final answer to our accuracy quest.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  11. #31
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    My Lee 1 oz. mould has (had) a riveted in core pin. The 7/8 oz. has a screw in core pin (held by small shoulder screw).

    I filed the "rivet" head off the 1 oz. core pin then punched it out. Not a problem. The new spare core pins from Titan are for the 1 oz. mould and they are threaded for the shoulder screw. So, the new Lee 1 oz. mould still has riveted core pin but spares are threaded!?! No wonder I was confused!

    Makes no difference to me since the slightly heavier and slightly longer 7/8 oz. slug will get a tail wad anyway. The 1 oz. slug looks identical to original except for the post now. The 7/8 oz. is slightly longer and slightly thicker skirt using the 1 oz. pin but it works fine.

    There are two different part numbers though ~ 1 for 1 oz. and it is threaded; 1 for 7/8 oz. and it is threaded... except I don't have one.

    That slug looks to be the same as the "Paradox" slugs KrackenFan69 sent me. They more or less resemble Paradox boolits but are much lighter being hollow base. They shot okay to 25 yards but my 50 yard groups were not great. However, the slugs ran about 0.727" and my bore is 0.733" so that didn't help. I have knurled some up to over 0.735" then sized back to 0.733" but have not shot them yet.

    Now that I have the Slugster with 0.729" bore I will try some in that as well.

    I like the Russian "Paradox" and Tusker designs but I would choose to have them cast to 0.735" on the bands (and maybe narrower bands) so they will swage to suit any bore under 0.735" like Brenneke's do. Also, I'd go with a tail wad with no cushion leg... or at least very solid/stiff/hard to deform leg with gas seal on the end... or maybe just a leg and separate gas seal so no issues with wrinkled or torn lips causing erratic drag. Like I said those AQ's shot well for me and that is how they are made.

    I am going to try a hot melt glue full bore tail wad in paper tube on my full bore TC slugs so see how those do. That would be equivalent to the slugs you have with a solid tail wad. As long as I can get decent tail wads with no big bubbles they should do okay. Time... I just need some time to do all this ~ rifling a choke tube, modifying Lee moulds, putting spring set in the Slugster, loading, testing! Work gets in the way!

    Longbow

  12. #32
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    Not to mention the weather? Aren't you's guys all snowed in by now?

    I will talk to Mossberg about a Rifled barrel with sights for you at SHOT. I know they have a variety of barrels configurations you just have to suss out the correct part number.

    I saw an 18" 590A1 with a rifled barrel and open sights at a gun shop and we can't find the thing in the catalog. I know it wasn't a special order either. I personally think an 18" rifled barrel for a M500 would be the hot tip for you. Easy to carry around and quick handling but still with decent range and accuracy. I don't like the looks of the longer barrels on the M500's like the Turkey and especially a Camo'd barrel on a blued gun.

    In my world things need to look right and operate right.

    Here's one with a Rifled Barrel that looks OK but it is 24", would work on your gun? Note the model #54264 on the picture. You would have to get a dealer to order that barrel for you.

    Like I said I will talk to a Rep and find out what is available and how you in Canada can get it.

    RandyAttachment 232314
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-18-2018 at 11:48 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  13. #33
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    Actually we are having an El Ninio winter so far... WET! We have a bit of snow but not much.

    Snow isn't a problem as long as the road to the range is ploughed.

    I'm afraid my budget will limit me to a used rifle barrel if I can find another good deal. I wish I had made the move on that one for $150.00!

    Oh well.

    I haven't given up on the rifled choke tube either. I just have to try again. The reason I am bent on that is that I think a slower twist is better than 1:36"+/- where modern rifled barrels and choke tubes are.

    If I had a way of rifling a full length barrel I would but I will be limited to a choke tube. With slow twist there should be no slippage.

    Anyway, I've got lots of smoothbore slugs to test yet.

    If the modified Lee slugs with tail wads show promise maybe I'll send some down to one of you guys for testing in rifled gun.

    Seems like the Lee and Lyman sabot slugs should be good as is from rifled gun... assuming good fit in wad.

    Hal seems to be getting good results.

    Makes me want a good rifled gun with scope!

    Longbow

  14. #34
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    What style of choke is your barrel threaded for? Colonial chokes makes rifled tubes for everything

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Not to mention the weather? Aren't you's guys all snowed in by now?

    I will talk to Mossberg about a Rifled barrel with sights for you at SHOT. I know they have a variety of barrels configurations you just have to suss out the correct part number.

    I saw an 18" 590A1 with a rifled barrel and open sights at a gun shop and we can't find the thing in the catalog. I know it wasn't a special order either. I personally think an 18" rifled barrel for a M500 would be the hot tip for you. Easy to carry around and quick handling but still with decent range and accuracy. I don't like the looks of the longer barrels on the M500's like the Turkey and especially a Camo'd barrel on a blued gun.

    In my world things need to look right and operate right.

    Here's one with a Rifled Barrel that looks OK but it is 24", would work on your gun? Note the model #54264 on the picture. You would have to get a dealer to order that barrel for you.

    Like I said I will talk to a Rep and find out what is available and how you in Canada can get it.

    RandyAttachment 232314
    Mossberg does make a 590/590A1 with a threaded barrel.


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  16. #36
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    BT: Threaded or Rifled? He wants a Rifled Barrel for his M500. The 590 barrels won't go onto a M500 due to the position of the barrel lug in relation to the end of the magazine tube. Also the 590's have a different attachment on the end of the mag tube so the barrels are not interchangeable.

    His barrel is threaded so he could conceivably use a rifled choke tube. I found Carlson's makes a Rifled Choke Tube for Winchester shotguns that fits the M500 barrel and the Browning Invector system its 1:35 twist .730 groove dia and it is only $50! This maybe the best solution as you aren't reinventing the wheel and it's only $50.

    1:34-1:36 seems to be the industry standard for 12 ga Rifling. My Hastings barrel is 1:34.

    Maybe this helps.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  17. #37
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    Actually my slugger is straight through cylinder bore and not threaded for choke tube.

    I bought a barrel adaptor from Brownells to silver solder on so I can use screw in choke tubes... which is what I started rifling to slow twist.

    It is my thought and opinion that modern rifled barrels and choke tubes are rifled at much too fast a twist for round balls and square slugs. 12 ga. round balls and slugs of about 1:1 length to bore diameter only need about 1:10" to 1:120" twist.

    The fast 1:34" to 1:36" twists that seem standard for rifled bores and choke tubes are for sabot slugs.

    There may be nothing wrong with "over spinning" a ball or slug if it is "perfect" but if there are any imperfections (always are some) then "over spinning" has to affect accuracy. I think this is also one of the reasons that solid slugs seem to be more accurate than hollow base slugs out of rifled guns. HB slugs are by their nature hollow so the mass and any imperfections are out away from the centroid where they will have a larger effect on the slug ~ less mass but more "leverage" by being at longer radius. My opinion only.

    Anyway, if I had a threaded barrel I would have tried a rifled choke tube some time ago and will be once I get all this "stuff" sorted out and done. The point of the slow twist rifled choke tube is to both avoid over spinning and with the slower twist in a choke tube there should be less tendency for skidding or stripping in the rifling. This is likely more of an issue with wad slugs.

    Not that I have the barrel adaptor I will put it on my single shot to test both factory rifled choke tubes and if I get it made, my slow twist rifled choke tube. It got a good start but I had some problems with the choke tube slipping while cutting rifling with an aggressive hook cutter ~ mistake on my part! I'll try to complete it but if beyond saving will start again.

    Longbow

  18. #38
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    I wonder what the twist on the rifled tube for the Russian Saiga 12ga AK would be? I don't know if you have ever seen how they work but they screw onto the outside of the barrel instead of the inside like our chokes do. I wonder if European American Armory would be able to get them? They were the importer of the Saiga guns.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    BT: Threaded or Rifled? He wants a Rifled Barrel for his M500. The 590 barrels won't go onto a M500 due to the position of the barrel lug in relation to the end of the magazine tube. Also the 590's have a different attachment on the end of the mag tube so the barrels are not interchangeable.

    His barrel is threaded so he could conceivably use a rifled choke tube. I found Carlson's makes a Rifled Choke Tube for Winchester shotguns that fits the M500 barrel and the Browning Invector system its 1:35 twist .730 groove dia and it is only $50! This maybe the best solution as you aren't reinventing the wheel and it's only $50.

    1:34-1:36 seems to be the industry standard for 12 ga Rifling. My Hastings barrel is 1:34.

    Maybe this helps.

    Randy
    I was thinking threaded with a rifled choke tube.


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  20. #40
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    Well I guess his barrel isn't threaded.

    I don't think the twist rate is going to affect the slugs nearly as much as you think. Any spin is better than no spin and a 2" long section of Rifling at the end is not going to impart very much spin anyway. It will induce some, how much remains to be seen.

    Here's a new Rifled Barrel on Ebay for $120US and it appears that they will ship to Canada.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mossberg-50...:rk:5:razz:f:0

    There's a bunch of them on there. All the Smooth Bore Barrels have sights, and all the Rifled Barrels have a Cantelever Scope Mount. They range from $120 to $200 and most all of them are new.

    Your gun is an 18" bbl with sights? I'd like that!

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-20-2018 at 12:36 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check