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Thread: 45-45-10 Simplified

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub Eutectic45's Avatar
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    45-45-10 Simplified

    45-45-10 Simplified
    Lee Liquid Alox (LLA) is wonderful stuff, a real time saver. For correct size as-cast bullets, it is lube and load. If you need sizing, Lee’s push through sizer is fast and inexpensive. As it comes from Lee, LLA is too concentrated, it is hard to get a thin, even coat. C. E. Harris recommends diluting LLA 50/50 with mineral spirits. I find this works great, but the coating is still sticky, messing up seating dies, cartridge boxes and pistol magazines. This problem was cured by the addition of Johnsons Paste Wax (JPW). The result, 45-45-10, is 45% LLA 45% JPW concentrate, 10% mineral spirits. 45-45-10 is very popular, it is so popular it is available commercially.
    Johnsons Paste Wax contains carnauba wax plus paraffin and microcrystalline wax. Polishing wax formulas use carnauba wax, which is very hard, with a small amount of a softer wax to make it easier to use and polishing agents like fine pumice. The balance is petroleum solvent, which evaporates leaving the wax mixture. The polishing agents are the white powder which is rubbed off, polishing the carnauba wax film.
    Carnauba is one of the hardest of the natural waxes, with unique characteristics no other natural or petroleum wax can match. Because of its uniqueness, carnauba has many uses, in addition to polish it is used in pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, candle making and many others. It is commonly available in craft stores, woodworking shops and on the internet. It is also inexpensive, 8 ounces of pure flake carnauba is currently about 10 dollars.
    To make 45-45-10, JPW is heated to boil off the solvents and concentrate the wax. The concentrate is mixed with LLA and mineral spirits. This is cautious work, overheating can ruin the wax, and there is significant risk of fire. It is also uncertain, it is difficult to define the correct level of concentration.
    The solvent in JPW is mineral spirits, so what you are doing is boiling off mineral spirits and then adding some mineral spirits back. It is the carnauba wax in JPW which hardens the LLA, giving the desired non-sticky film. Why not add pure carnauba wax to LLA? It turns out this is easier, less expensive and works the same.
    LLA plus carnauba wax
    In a 1 quart glass Mason jar, add 4 ounces of deodorized mineral spirits, and 220 grains carnauba wax flakes. If you do not have a scale this is about 2 level tablespoons of flake carnauba. Put the cap on the Mason jar, and heat it in boiling water. DO NOT use direct heat, DO NOT use a microwave! Swirl and heat until all the carnauba dissolves. Open the jar, add a 4 ounce bottle of LLA and swirl to mix. Allow the mixture to cool.
    You can double this recipe, a quart Mason jar will hold a double recipe.

    The result is a soft paste at room temperature, when warm to touch (~100 F) it is a thick liquid. The choice of 220 grains of carnauba was the minimum amount of carnauba to get a non-sticky coating. This coating is still relatively soft and easily scratched with a fingernail. 300 grains gives a harder film and 350 grains is much harder with a slightly longer dry time. Accuracy testing showed the 220 grain lube was equal to LLA.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I use Recluses 45/45/10 quite a bit, and pan lube the others. Regardless, I will look for a source for that carnauba wax "flakes" to try this sometime in the future.

    Thanks for sharing your adaptation!
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    Accuracy testing showed the 220 grain lube was equal to LLA.
    I'd like to hear more about this.
    did you test the other proportions of Carnuba?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I have been using 2% Carnuba wax with BLL for some time now.

    With Carnuba, all I have read says 1-3% is all you need.

    I guess I never really understood the point of heating the JPW to drive off the mineral spirits just to add more mineral spirit later.

    But, I do agree that JPW or Carnuba wax and thinned Lee Alox go VERY well together.

    I have not personally tried the 45/45/10 although I am considering it for my next batch of lube.

    But I have been very happy with BLL and 2% Carnuba wax added. Either from flake melted into the alox or JPW.

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub Eutectic45's Avatar
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    The idea was to have a non-sticky film.
    I made the ones listed, but did not run extensive accuracy tests on each one. 220 grains gave a non-sticky film, 38 Special and 357 Mag shot groups just like liquid Alox and no leading.
    I'm done, 220 is what I use. I have tried it on 9mm Luger and it worked fine.

    Feel free to experiment, I have not tried 308/30.06 yet. Rifle tests would be nice.
    Higher % carnauba might have an advantage, however the film can be too hard.
    The film has to displace when the bullet is seated, if it does not, the case is expanded and will not chamber.
    AMHIKT

  6. #6
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    Eutectic45,
    Thanks for the response.
    I was just curious...and was hoping there might be some Rifle tests.

    I've been pretty happy with my 2 coat technique. First coat 45-45-10 and second coat of BLL...but it's always good to hear about other techniques.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
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  7. #7
    In Remembrance Reverend Al's Avatar
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    Just curious. Where did you source your pure Carnauba wax flakes?
    I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't reached my "Expiry" date!

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    45/45/10 If you have BLL, don't bother. I did test 2 coats BLL in 30/30 16gr 2400 under a 185gr cast. No leading and decent accuracy for a soft alloy(1% Cu/1%Zn). Not much smoke either. IIRC the ludmark stuff does have carnuba in it.
    Whatever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    45/45/10 If you have BLL, don't bother. I did test 2 coats BLL in 30/30 16gr 2400 under a 185gr cast. No leading and decent accuracy for a soft alloy(1% Cu/1%Zn). Not much smoke either. IIRC the ludmark stuff does have carnuba in it.
    I bother because I still got one peanutbutter jar full(45-45-10), from the batch I made in 2011, LOL
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
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  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    I've just tried this recipe, using the 2 tablespoon pure carnauba wax version for lack of JPW. Its cooled now and has not thickened in the slightest. I was a little dubious when I saw the recipe called for equal amounts mineral spirits and liquid alox (4 ounces or 1/2 cup each), as I thought this was a radical departure from the 10% mineral spirits to 45% LLA in the original formula. Am I missing something here? I'm using straight flaked carnauba wax bought from Amazon.

    I know from an old bottle of solidified LLA that it can be thinned again with mineral spirits, so it must have some evaporative characteristics. I've left it on my balcony uncovered to continue cooling so maybe it will thinken up as some of the spirits evaporate off.

    It really seems like the ratio of mineral spirits to LLA should be way lower than 1:1. I have more LLA and wax flakes so it would be easy enough to alter the ratios. I'd appreciate any advice.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I started down this road by melting a spoonful of Carnuba flakes into a couple of ounces of mineral spirits. Now this set up once cooled. I could take a pea sized lump and tumble 50-100 cast boolits that already had 2 light coats of LLL and it would give a clear hard coat, no stickies. Dirt did not stick to it. And my bores loved it.

    Well eventually it just got added to the BLL. One less container on the desk. Still got great results.

    My last batch I went way offroad on. I melted a good sized lump of JPW into a 4 oz bottle of Lee Alox. Added a jar of what I thought was 90% Isopropol Alcohol but turned out to be 60%. Well the water separated. So I got it cold, poured the water into the garbage. The resulting mix of Alox, alcohol, JPW works great. And there was some alox/JPW residue in the jar I used for mixing. This had a higher concentration of wax in it. A coat of that followed by the other made awesome lube.

    I think the world is wide open when it comes to recipes with Alox and Carnuba, however you source them and whatever form they are in. IMO they show great results when lightly applied to cast.

    My bores LOVE the carnuba. Its like any more no matter how dingy it looks before shooting them gets a face lift.

    After they are just as shiny as could be with clearly defined grooves. And they seem to hold that shine for years.

    My heartfelt thanks go out to Ben for his giving away of all his secrets and work to create and test BLL.
    The same to those who have worked on 45/45/10.

    They have given us a road map. Where we choose to go, what we choose to do with what we have been give is up to us.

    The world is our oyster. We can color inside the lines for proven success. Or we can stalk through the offroad trackless brush and still have a fairly good idea of where we are going to come out. And chances are it is going to work.

    The only thing I urge is that you take good notes in the creation process. Hard to remember sometimes a year or 3 back exactly what we did, what we put in it. And when you find that perfect pure gold lube you want to be able to recreate it.

    Happy shooting all!
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  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master
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    GostHawk,

    Your are way more than welcome.
    Enjoy BLL.

    Ben

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what is "BLL"? I see the term first used in the 4th post of this thread -- and then the same term is used several more times in the thread -- but I don't see it spelled out anywhere...

    Just cast my first batch of bullets today and I couldn't get Liquid Alox, but did get White Liquid Xlox, which I hear is the same thing...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Shot View Post
    Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what is "BLL"? I see the term first used in the 4th post of this thread -- and then the same term is used several more times in the thread -- but I don't see it spelled out anywhere...

    Just cast my first batch of bullets today and I couldn't get Liquid Alox, but did get White Liquid Xlox, which I hear is the same thing...
    BLL:
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-L-Liquid-Lube
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks, JonB. Looks like the Johnson Liquid Wax used to make BLL is no longer available (or is $111 for less than a quart at Amazon LOL and here we thought $100/M primers were bad!) ... I guess it's time to use a different recipe...

    I bought something called "emulsifying wax" to use to emulsify fish oil for use as an attractant on fishing lures. I wonder whether that would be useful...
    Last edited by Buck Shot; 07-26-2021 at 02:28 PM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    It's been awhile since I have make any tumble lube, but I believe that a floor wax under the name of Ludmark is a substitute for JPW. I remember Ben and others doing some comparison of the two. I'm sure someone will respond with more info about it. No need to look for a different liquid lube when BLL or 45-45-10 will work.
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  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ubetcha View Post
    It's been awhile since I have make any tumble lube, but I believe that a floor wax under the name of Ludmark is a substitute for JPW. I remember Ben and others doing some comparison of the two. I'm sure someone will respond with more info about it. No need to look for a different liquid lube when BLL or 45-45-10 will work.
    Is the Lundmark liquid paste wax with carnuba for BLL (no-cook 45-45-10) or 45-45-10?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rfeustel View Post
    Is the Lundmark liquid paste wax with carnuba for BLL (no-cook 45-45-10) or 45-45-10?
    BLL is no cook.
    BLL is liquid floor wax and Lee Alox (mixed about 60-40, depending on how dried out the Alox is)
    I'm not sure where you get carnuba?

    Liquid floor wax can be the Lundmark or Johnsons
    But is NOT to be confused with paste wax.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    BLL is no cook.
    BLL is liquid floor wax and Lee Alox (mixed about 60-40, depending on how dried out the Alox is)
    I'm not sure where you get carnuba?

    Liquid floor wax can be the Lundmark or Johnsons
    But is NOT to be confused with paste wax.
    JonB - thanks, I think I get it. The Lundmark wax people seem to use for the BLL (substitute for liquid Johnsons) is this one right?:

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lundmark-...32-6/781891070

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    The Johnson's Paste Wax in the round yellow can can be easily used for liquid lube. Pop the lid and melt it on an ELECTRIC hotplate on low heat, OUTDOORS until it is completely liquid. Stir in one 4 oz. bottle of Lee Liquid Lube or White Label X-Lox and turn off the heat. When cool, put the lid on it and use as you would 45-45-10 or BLL. Works great!
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