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Thread: Paper patching and Forensic Ballistics

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by warren5421 View Post
    Shoot a lot of black powder in a .45-70 Sharps or .38-55 Winchester High Wall but have never paper patched, also shoot a lot of cap & ball using paper cartages i.e. Sharps, Naviy 51's & Army 60's. With the C&B very seldom is there any paper to be found so my questions are how much paper is found with the use of a paper patch bullet if fired outside? Will the patch stay intact size wise or is it reduced to very small pieces that the wind can blow away? How many people working in forensics would even notice a paper patch paper when working an outdoor area where the shooter was?
    This isn’t a direct answer to your question because I honestly haven’t looked, but it may be relevant, I hope. I have two things that may help. Shooting paper patched .30-06, .44, and .45-70, I have never recovered a bullet that still had the patch attached. So I don’t think it stays on, but that may just be my loads. My second thing, which is probably even less helpful, is shooting cloth patched round balls out of muzzleloaders, in which the patch is usually about 10-20 feet in front of the muzzle, depending on wind conditions and who knows what else, but either way, they don’t go far. So I think it would depend on what distance our hypothetical character in the OPs novel fired his weapon from. I mean, if the muzzle is pressed against the victim, I’m sure the patch will be there, but I don’t know in what condition it will be. My ML cloth patches are all kinds of frayed at the edges, but that doesn’t translate to paper patches, I don’t think. But if the shot was taken from a distance, I would think the investigators would have to locate the spot the shot was taken from and do it quickly enough before wind, rain, etc blows away the patch or patch fragments, dissolves them in a puddle, etc.
    I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?

  2. #82
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Maybe I can help.













    The answer would be - it depends. To avoid the tail nub being recoverable, one can use a tailless patch. It's not difficult do develop a patch that will break up into small fragments but really, the patch is going to do whatever it does when the load is developed for accuracy.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  3. #83
    Boolit Master BJK's Avatar
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    So much of this thread I didn't read, sorry. Interesting thread just to exercise the grey matter.

    Sorta on subject, there was lead bulleted ammo sold by some big company that had a heavy plastic jacket. This was quite some time ago, maybe 30 years or more. It was removed from the market because the jacket was so thick the forensics were completely useless. Hmmm, a coated bullet with many coats of coating might simulate that bullet. I think if one was to do it, 2 coats as is normal, then sized. Then (experimentation would need to happen) additional coats, maybe sized after each one until a sufficient thickness is achieved.

    It's all coming back... It was S&W Nyclad. Today it either is made or was discontinued by Federal.

    I like the .30 sabot idea. It would be like the S&W Nyclad but with far more velocity. When I was playing with sabots I got 3400fps with a 55gr bullet in a 15" .308 handgun but accuracy was only 3" @ 100 yards and the manufacturer told me that was about all I could expect. I dropped the project. It was a completely odd ball loading, using a very fast powder for the cartridge. Muzzle flash and blast was spectacular.

  4. #84
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    Concerning the Nyclad - somewhere in the Steel Shipping container in the back 40 is a 2/3 full box of 38 Special Nyclads I picked up maybe 40 or more years ago when I went dumpster diving at some forgotten range. The previous post brought this back from the back files of my memory. Never shot them as at the time I thought "Gee, must not work very well if someone threw them out at the range." I thought at the time I would pull the cycled bullets and must some cast boolits in the brass.

    Found this link that indicated that in 2009 Federal was going to "Reintroduce" the Nyclad bullet. https://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...009-shot-show/

    Not sure how thick the nylon clawing is - doubt it is thick enough to result in the rifling not engraving on the lead projectile. Same applies to trying to build up enough thickness with Powder Coating to keep the lead from engraving; besides with powder coating the powder coat if done properly adheres to the lead all the way to the target - as I would assume the Nyclad would also do. This would result in the coatings carrying the engraving signature that the Thread is reputed to explore as potentially not occurring.

    For me - I like to Paper Patch and will continue to do so. I would theorize that under microscope and other forensic tools; the rifle engraving from a properly patched boolit would be there under forensic evaluation. The barrel of a .308 Winchester for example is .308, and a properly fitted boolit for paper patching would be .309 or .310 - allowing the grooves to be slightly ironed into the boolit when fired. Just my thoughts/observations.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  5. #85
    Boolit Master
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    A good night's sleep is more precious than gold.....
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  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy
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    It isn't just the case itself. The firing pin can give distinctive marks. But that is easily replaced.

    If you run a paper patched bullet through a sizer you will see distinctive patterns from the paper to. They might be identifiable.

    If you soaked the paper in potassium nitrate it might form a slow match and incinerate itself after leaving the barrel. Don't test this inside or on a tinder dry range.

  7. #87
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    I have recovered black powder fired .443 and .444 slicks (.45-70 Sharps and Rollers) that were patched with 7# and 8# paper and nary a rifling or muzzle mark on any. The paper patching blew out the muzzle as small shards of confetti. Since a key for PPBs is the fit of the slick and paper for either black or white powders, a very tight fit to bore with black and an over groove fit for white could/should engrave the slick (or bullet), I'd think.

    As far as PPB forensics are concerned, if the slick is unmarked, the paper and cartridge are retrieved, all that might be left could be the retrieved slick dimensions and its metallic composition. I think. See the film "Shooter" and the scene with Levon Helm, it's up on YouTube.
    The .45-70 is the only government I trust.

  8. #88
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    I suppose because people know you've got it. An off-the-record gun which you might not even have the opportunity to test, puts you in a situation where informing is a legal and remunerative business.
    With an off the record gun, you don’t know where it’s been or done before. You could have a murder weapon and not know it.

  9. #89
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Just take some NiQil nd get a good nite sleep.
    Whatever!

  10. #90
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I know that you guys try to get these PP shooting with smokeless. Just cram some Black in the case and go for it and you might see those groups tighten up.
    I just shot these three targets at close range and off sand bags.

    Sorry I just had to do this don't slap me too hard
    Y'all stay well.........Kurt


    Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #91
    Boolit Master
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    You guys missed on very intriguing still open case of the murder of a federal prosecutor on the west coast that was murdered by a pistol chambered for the 9.27 makarov cartridge.
    https://seattlemag.com/news-and-feat...lled-tom-wales
    Holt didn’t yet know that her back-fence neighbor, Assistant U.S. Attorney Tom Wales, 49, lay dying on his basement floor with gunshot wounds to his neck and upper body. He probably didn’t see his attacker as he sat at his desk answering e-mail in the basement office of his restored 1905 Craftsman on the 100 block of Hayes Street.
    https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/...flyer.pdf/view
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The barrel was after market and so from the online vendor they got a list of people that had purchased that gun. The problem was .380 ACP ammo was fired through the gun. 380 fires a .355" bullet and the mak fires a bullet nominal in excess of .360"
    Goggle says:
    Bullet diameter 9.27 mm (0.365 in)
    Land diameter 9.00 mm (0.354 in)
    They had a suspect, but were apparently were not able to make a good ID on the match between barrel and recovered bullets. I am not sure what happened to the cartridge cases.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master
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    If the police have enough reason to go searching and looking in your direction, whether they can match a gun and bullet to you or not will only be part of what gets you convicted. The gun and any spare ammunition must be made inaccessible or completely useless for evidentiary use. A paper patch bullet will point investigators in the direction of someone with a lot of knowledge about ammunition. You must use something common like the very old revolver that killed vince foster that used common ammo and that cannot be readily traced.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check