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Thread: Paper patching and Forensic Ballistics

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    if i knew the answer im not telling might need it sometime.

  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I could write for hours about the things that get crooks caught, whether it is a homicide or a catalytic converter theft.

    A lot of it boils down to planning, or more correctly a failure to do so or to plan completely. This becomes obvious fairly early in an investigation. A lot of crimes aren't planned at all, or only up to a point where the intended act is completed. After that, they are winging it--and it REALLY shows.

    I've been retired for 16 years now. There isn't much that I miss about cop work, especially now that media propagandists are doing their best to cast us in the most negative possible light to boost ad rates. One thing I do miss--hunting armed predators. That was the best.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  3. #63
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    9.3X62AL

    I worked case one time, the perpetrator had stolen a transmission out of a parked car, as he was crawling out his wallet and ID came out of his pocket.

    There is a lot more forensic evidence in cartridge cases than bullets, making a revolver a better murder weapon.

  4. #64
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three44s View Post
    I suspect that firing pin marks and then bolt face stirations are number one and two where it comes to casing forensics.

    Three44s
    Extraction and ejection marks also rank right up there.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  5. #65
    Boolit Master




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    And jails are chock full of *Brilliant* criminals. Two words: Digital Fingerprint.

  6. #66
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    In a double homicide case the victims were shot with a .45ACP, the ammunition was some cheap commercial lead bullet rounds. Five rounds were fired the bullets were pretty well deformed. Three cases were found at the scene, a weapon was never found so the bullets were of no evidentiary value, however the crime scene cases were compared with other empty cases at the suspects residence and were confirmed to have been fired in the same gun.

  7. #67
    Boolit Grand Master
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    The greatest disservice done by these CSI-centered TV shows is to create the impression in the minds of viewers that forensic examinations are some kind of Deus ex machina--that these Miracles Of Modern Science can conclusively point the finger of guilt at a given perpetrator, and can stand alone and unsupported by surrounding circumstances to direct justice. That just isn't reality.

    Firearms forensics is NOT new science. Parts of it have been amended by scientific advances, but a lot of the foundation elements are close to 100 years old.

    GOOD convictions are a holistic amalgam--science, witness statements, suspect admissions, physical evidence processed with that science, and dogged confirmation of every possible detail of all the elements listed above.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  8. #68
    Boolit Bub dirtball's Avatar
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    Most homicides would go unsolved if the perp simply disposed of the weapon (in a thoughtful manor) and kept their mouth shut!
    "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."
    --Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (TX)

  9. #69
    Boolit Bub
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    This thread is very interesting. I have read about many crimes and most often, as has been said several times, the criminal cannot keep his mouth shut, especially to their ex-partners.

    So far I've learned the weapon should be a revolver, the bullets salvaged and riding in a sabot, the powder and cases should be from various sources and the weapon should be disposed of, i.e., melted into slag and buried. Then have your, ears and eyes poked out, your tongue removed as well as your hands so you cannot listen, talk, write or sign language.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by wbbh View Post
    This thread is very interesting. I have read about many crimes and most often, as has been said several times, the criminal cannot keep his mouth shut, especially to their ex-partners.

    So far I've learned the weapon should be a revolver, the bullets salvaged and riding in a sabot, the powder and cases should be from various sources and the weapon should be disposed of, i.e., melted into slag and buried. Then have your, ears and eyes poked out, your tongue removed as well as your hands so you cannot listen, talk, write or sign language.
    That sounds like it about covers it.
    I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?

  11. #71
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    Perhaps even better is not to do anything that might raise concerns about forensic evidence.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master
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    That’s the absolute best and easiest solution, and while I think the people we have here will agree and are more interested in the science than actually having any intention of doing anything, it’s still an interesting discussion. And let’s not forget that criminals aren’t exactly known for being geniuses.
    I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?

  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    The genius thing is not always correct, I worked a homicide one time, the defendant in the case had a 150+ IQ.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master
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    John,
    That’s surprising to me, but then again, I’m kinda spoiled because most of the criminals I deal with are average at best, and some I don’t think know how to spell “average”, so I’ll count my blessings and leave the smart ones to you. Thank you for picking up my slack.
    I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?

  15. #75
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    In my 35 years in the business that was the most "intelligent" criminal, I dealt with, he had some mental issues. It isn't always the case that intelligence and smart share the same "room"..

    I was in the the Canadian Legion in Prince Rupert, I was there to testify on a homicide case I managed to get involved in on the wrong side of the Alaska/Canada border., I was chatting with the resident RCMP superintendent, we were talking about "intelligent v smart" constables. The RCMP at one time had a requirement that their constables had to have a degree prior to being hired. The term the superintendent used was that these were the best educated intelligent dumb b------s he had ever dealt with.

    A bit far afield from paper patched bullets.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master
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    I’ve only got 12 years in, and the only paper patched bullets I’ve dealt with were ones I fired into a bullet trap and gelatin to give the forensics guys something different to play with.
    I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?

  17. #77
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Van Gelder View Post
    The genius thing is not always correct, I worked a homicide one time, the defendant in the case had a 150+ IQ.
    No matter how intelligent one person is, or worse, how intelligent they believe themselves to be, they still don't know everything. And if they are angery, even the smartest will make mistakes. I've read several stories about MDs that committed murder, it takes a pretty sharp mind to be a doctor, but they still made stupid mistakes that got them caught.

  18. #78
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    Back to paper.. When you shoot .38 spls. in your .357 you always get a ring in the cylinder, not so much with gas checks and none with paper patched bullets.

    I have recovered some paper patched bullets, shot into deep snow, they had no identifiable marks on them.

  19. #79
    Boolit Master
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    Have two targets, manage to get them hating one another enough to do one another in.

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

  20. #80
    Boolit Buddy
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    Shoot a lot of black powder in a .45-70 Sharps or .38-55 Winchester High Wall but have never paper patched, also shoot a lot of cap & ball using paper cartages i.e. Sharps, Naviy 51's & Army 60's. With the C&B very seldom is there any paper to be found so my questions are how much paper is found with the use of a paper patch bullet if fired outside? Will the patch stay intact size wise or is it reduced to very small pieces that the wind can blow away? How many people working in forensics would even notice a paper patch paper when working an outdoor area where the shooter was?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check