For those who might know.

[docone31]

Hokay,
I slugged the barrel. I used .30 cal castings that measured .302 in my .303 Enfield.
Easy fit, got five printings. These were for paper patching with straight sides, actually a slight taper from the ogive to base.
I did not pour into the bore. I was looking for slight prints. I got five.
Now, this thing shoots crappy. I mean, with cast sized at .311, 20ft groups, little leading. Paper patched .3135, 1-2ft groups.
When I drove the .302 casting down the bore, I got slight land prints. More skidding than impressions. I did get a measurement though.
Driving the casting down the bore, obturated the base. I get .304. Now, with five land rifleing I had to take five measurements, and kinda figuire out where I was.
I am guessing it is a sloppy .303 to .304. I get the .304 from measureing inside one impression to the outside of the base. Inside measurement of a fired case gives me .3125.
My next best guess on sizing, is going to be sizing to .309, the two wraps of Meade Traceing paper. This should give me outside .3145. I have been wrapping to .3135. That would explain the group variance.
My thought is, I have 20 loaded .3135 wraps. I am going to apply 320 grit to the paper showing. This, hopefully, will polish the bore lightly. I do not want to diminish the groove diameter too much. Then cleaning the bore, and firing .3145 with dry paper to polish.
Shouldn't be too tight to cause pressure issues.
Any thoughts?
Since This will be custom wrapping from here on, it will definately be advantageous to go .303EPPS.

[pdawg_shooter]

Try sizing .304 and wrapping with 2 wraps of 16# paper. Let dry, snip the tails, lube with BAC and run through a .313 push through die to remove excess lube. I load full power loads, mostly with AA2495 and CCI 200 caps. Mu #4 MK 2 will shoot into about 3" at 100.

[docone31]

pdawg, thanks.
It is frustrating to an extent. I only have a .308 sizer for smaller diameter, and .311 for larger.
I take it, 16lb paper is the green computer paper. I am going to try .309, to have .3145 final diameter, untill I have other resource. I load lowest Lee dipper for the .303.
With surplus loads, I also can get 3" or better. I am wondering if I can size .308, then wrap with notebook paper. I haven't tried it yet so I do not know the final measurement.
The Meade measures .0015, The notebook paper is .005.
I also hope to get my Smelly to run paper into the black at 100.
I pay very careful attention to what I read here.

[docone31]

I just wrapped four, two with .308 sizing, with notebook paper, .003. I will wait to see dry size.
Four, .309. Two wrapped with Meade Traceing Paper, .0015, two with notebook paper, .003.
I had to enlarge my template, make another in other words, to compensate for the .001 thickness addition to my base wrap. I also changed the angle of the wrap to 45*. Much easier to wrap in my cigarette roller than the 60* I was using before.
Not only is it simpler and easier to get in line, but, starting the wrap so it is not inside out, in other words starting the wrap so the beginning is inside the wrap, not on the outside like the ones before. I started the wrap at the tail, this time at the ogive.
I will measure when dry, probably tomorrow.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

You really need to drive an oversize slug through the barrel to determine BORE and GrOOVE measurements.

Then you can figure out whether to patch either to bore or to groove depending upon which fits best in your chamber throat and loaded cartridge neck.

If you patch to bore the slug within must be soft enough to obdurate and seal the entire bore and groove. If you patch to groove the throat must accept the patched slug without tearing as it enters and yet be true and fit the cartridge neck and the magazine. Eh?

The work is in the first few bullets , patching and checking, and making just a few test rounds to start the quest.

BvT

[docone31]

So far, the .308 sized patched with Meade, measures almost dry, .3135. The notebook paper measures .317. Sized .309, measures .3125.? Up a thousandth, down in finished diameter? With notebook paper, .317.
Not completely dry, so tomorrow we will see. I think I can shoot .317, the bore is .313, not .311.

[docone31]

I just slid one of the .308 sized castings, with notebook paper. It slid into the fired case up to the first lube land. It looks like I can bell the mouth after sizing and it will be a tight fit.
It is amazing how much the paper shrinks around the casting. When it was first damp, it measured .323, down to .318, now to .317.
Way cool.

[longbow]

I agree with pdawg shooter.

Use a bore size or maybe a thou over bore size boolit, so 0.304" or 0.305" and patch to groove diameter.

I think your 0.308" boolits are large at about 0.004" over bore diameter. The lands may be wrinkling or shredding the patch with that much interference.

If those 0.302" slugs are boolits you could try patching those up to groove diameter.

I have two .303's. One has 0.303" bore and 0.314"+ groove, the other is 0.305" bore and 0.314" groove.

Both like a boolit of 0.305" nose and 0.315" body. Neither would shoot at all with boolits under 0.314". Nor do they shoot factory jacketed ammo ~ if I knurl jacketed from the 0.311" to 0.313" (as big as I can get them) they shoot pretty good, otherwise I get 6" groups at 50 yards.

I paper patch a 0.304" boolit tp 0.315" and it shoots well from both guns. Must have the same bore/groove dimensions as pdawg shooter.

As stated above, you really do need to know the bore and throat and/or groove diameter to patch accordingly.

Another thought. What alloy are you using - ACWW, heat treated WW, soft lead? That may make a difference too especially if real hard or real soft.

Longbow

[docone31]

Longbow,
Thanks, that helps.
.315..... that is what I am now shooting for. I have been, I believe, way too loose. I had originally patched for .313.
Mine shoots surplus jacketed ammo real well. At least as well as I can. I have heard, the softer jacketeds, sized .311, do not grip. With the larger bores, poor grouping. The harder cupro magnetic jackets on surplus work fairly well.
I am not satisfied with that.
I get a .304 bore. I am figuiring that wrapped to .315 will make better. I have not made a bore lap.
I am kinda hoping the wrap is just short of the rifleing. I had read that that is the desired thichness.
I donno.
If sizing is too large, I will get Lee to make me a .304 sizing die. I use water quenched wheel weight.
The cigarette roller sure makes it short work on the rolling.
How has the knurling worked out? How did you do it? I have knurled valve guides on cast iron heads before. I never knurled a bullet.

[docone31]

Further follow up on the patches.
The castings sized at .308, wrapped with notebook paper, .003, size at .318. The ones sized .309 wrapped with Meade, size at .312. The ones sized .309, wrapped with notebook paper, .316-7.
The ones size .312, slip into a fired unsized case. The ones size .316 will enter the fired unsized case, but will not slip into it. If I bell the mouth of the case, it could be pressed into it.
I have a new unfired case. Neither will even enter past the gas check land. I am not using on gas checks on these castings.
It is late for me. I am going to measure tomorrow again. I am considering three wraps of Meade on the .308 sized case.
Meade measures .0015. Notebook paper measures .003. My original casting is the Lee C312/185 for 303 British. My sizing dies are Lee Push Through.

[longbow]

I am not an expert in paper patching so take my comments as personal observations of my loads in my guns and knowledge gained from reading and advice provided on this site and others.

I mentioned elsewhere I tried 0.301" boolits per Lyman recommendations for standard .30 cal. Worked fine in my .308 but not in the .303's.

I believe that the deeper rifling of the .303's is the main difference. Techniques that worked in the .308 which has shallower rifling do not seem to work well in my .303's.

The advice I have been given is to use a bore size boolit for smokeless loads & patch to groove diameter. This has worked for me. Black powder is a different ball game with somewhat different rules.

I made a tool to groove boolits ~ we'll call it an annular knurl. I actually made it to put "microgrooves" in smooth sided boolits for lubrication. Somewhat like Lee's Tumble Lube grooves. I make simple push out boolit moulds that are smooth sided and have shot boolits cast in them them in .44 mag and 0.30 cal. with a grease cookie type lube system. They work pretty well but I wanted a better way of lubing so made the tool. It has since been used to knurl "J" bullets for the .303 with good success and also for putting lube grooves on the smooth sided boolits. A side benefit is that depending on how deep I knurl I can swell a boolit by about 0.003" to maybe 0.004".

I decided to try knurling the smooth sided 0.301" boolits I made for paper patching to bring them closer to .303 bore size and suddenly got good accuracy. So, was it the increase in diameter? The knurling giving better grip to the paper? Both? I can't answer that just yet but it did work.

My suggestions for you are:

1) Water quenched wheelweights may be too hard and slippery especially since you are 0.004" over bore diameter. Try rolling the boolits between a coarse file and a hard surface (steel plate) before patching to see if roughing the surface gives better grip on the paper - no other changes. Ross Seyfried recommended this for paper patching copper jacketed bullets to help the paper grip better. This is easy and you already have the sized hard boolits and paper the right thickness, all you are doing is making the surface rough. See how it goes.

PS: I guess if these are grooved boolits from a standard lube groove mould, roughing may not help, but if they are smooth it may. Won't hurt to try either way.

2) Try air cooled wheelweights or even a little softer by adding pure lead or solder, again making no other changes. Possibly the softer boolit will allow the rifling to compress the lead without wrinkling or ripping the patch. You will either have to anneal some of your boolits or cast new and air cool. I really think your 0.308" boolit is oversize. Maybe someone else can advise if I am wrong.

3) If those don't work then try roughing and patching the 0.302" slugs if they are shootable boolits. Use a thicker paper and patch up to 0.314"+. Obviously better if you know the exact groove diameter but 0.314" should be close and my experience with paper patching says a couple thou over doesn't seem to hurt. My loads using the 0.301" boolits gave groups of 4" to 6" at 50 yards so this should at least get you in the ballpark. At 0.304" I was down to 1 1/2" +/-. Not tack driving accuracy but a big improvement.

4) If none of that works then try to get hold of some boolits or a sizer to make bore size boolits (0.304") for patching. Again, I would use ACWW or a little softer alloy.

5) I would leave bore lapping until you get sorted out by slugging and finding exact bore and groove diameters. Unless the bore is in really rough shape it should not need lapping.

That is about all I got. Maybe others with more experience can add.

Longbow

[docone31]

Longbow, lots of good info there! I got two schools of thought from that, and another reference. I sincerely appreciate the time you spent on your response.
At this moment, all I have is the Lee 312 mold, and .308 sizer. However, last night I wrapped two samples using the casting sized to .308, and three wraps of Meade. .314.
Now, if that actually works, I can see using surplus 147gn .308 bullets in the .303 as well as castings.
The paper dried hard as a rock. The lube grooves are visible as indents in the wrap.
If .002 oversize is not an issue with patching, then, .308 with two wraps of notebook paper at .318 is too large.
The Meade Paper is .0015, notebook paper is .003.
My bore is .304, I have yet to slug the groove depth. It is a challenge to measure five groove rifleing.
If this was a beater rifle, I would probably trade it in for something else. I have an Ishy that is an absolute tack driver! I love the design of both my Smelly, and Ishy.
With this patching, if the .308 works, I will cast ACWW specifically for this. The Lee push through sizing system works real easily with WCWW at .308 however. I do not have a guage to test hardness. I can scratch it easily with a fingernail. As a matter of fact, I clean off the flash before wrapping with my fingernail. It cleans up easily.
I read that article by Ross also. It originally opened the door to even knowing what paper patching was for me.
Now to make it work. If it does not, I will have Lee make me a mold set specifically for patching. A sizing die also. I have some samples that are .301 I can send them.
Thanks Longbow. I appreciate it.

[longbow]

Something I forgot to mention in my rambling reply was that Corbin makes a knurling tool that is commercially available adn not even too expensive:

http://www.corbins.com/hct-2.htm

This is a diamond knurl but still should increase diameter a bit maybe for your 0.302" slugs.

Longbow

[docone31]

Longbow, Cool!
I appreciate the time and help you have provided.
I am at this point, down sizing my castings and preparing to wrap three turns of Meade. I should get between .313-.314 when dry.
If that diameter works, I will have Lee make one in .304. I do not want to down size my .312 to .304. I will get a mold.
Thanks for the insight. It is helping me break through.
Longbow, I also want to add. I appreciate the insight. I really do. I have just wrapped 20 castings, sized .308 with 3 wraps of Meade. Damp, they measure .316, when dry, tomorrow, they should be below .315. From that point, I will see if they chamber. If they do easily, I will load them with my usual casting load. If, from there they fire and there is no sign of pressure, the last 20 had very unflat primers, loose in the bore I guess, if there are no pressure signs, I will be looking for other signs.
If, they work well, I will either stay with .308 casting diameter, or I will have Lee make me a .304 mold and sizer.
This has been one of the most exciting things I have done in reloading! Casting was fun, sizing pretty cool, but, paper patching! I am enjoying this. This is where the rubber hits the road!
Another advantage to this forum, I am putting my measurements here. I can go back to this and there it is, written down, with critique'. That really helps.
Thanks everyone.

[longbow]

I've forgotten now but I think the info is somewhere in one of these threads. What powder and charge are you using?

I am still working but am finding decent accuracy with up to a 200 gr. boolit (paper patched or lead):

- 12 grs. Unique which is a mild load
- 18 to 20 grs. IMR 4227 light to moderate load
- up to 24 grs. IMR 4198 moderate load
- 32 grs. IMR 4895 reasonably stout load

Subjective terms I know but I haven't chronographed these yet so don't know exact velocities. The PP loads were without filler but for the most part the unpatched boolits were over COW filler with the same loads.

I'm not sure what you are using but these are working for me.

Longbow

[docone31]

I have been using 38.5gns of surplus 4895. It kinda performs like 4064. Mayhaps I will try the 32gns load you showed. That might be a factor.
The recoil is definately less than jacketed, but, I might be pushing the paper too much for the starting load.
I just measured the two castings I wrapped last night. When they were first dry, they measured .315. They now slide into a fired case without resistance, and measure .313. Wow, what a difference. I quickly cut those papers last night, the 20 I did tonight I measured. There was a gap from end to end on the first two. One was tight, it measures .314, the one with the gap is .313.
The .308 sizing, and two wrap notebook paper is .317. Too big for sure. I am shooting for .314with the full three wraps.
Perhaps with a few less grains, that might just work.

[docone31]

Morning measurement.
.313. They slide into fired, unsized cases, just. A little resistance. The wraps are much more solid feeling. Wrapping it with the tip of the wrap on the ogive definately makes a difference.
These are three wraps of Meade Tracing Paper, .0015, casting sized .308. There was no tearing of the tail this time. Three wraps seems to make it more stable.
I am going to try them. I wrapped 20.
Is lube used on paper patching?
I have been firing them dry. I might try a drop on the exposed paper once they are loaded. I have lots of Alox from all the sizing die kits I got.
These seem to be very stable, and look like some I have from someone else.
Sizing at .308, using the Lee C312/185 303 British mold, leaves lube grooves. These show as minor depressions on the wrapping. I am thinking the paper fills the grooves after sizing.
These look good.

[Digital Dan]

Odd number grooves makes for odd calculations. There be devices to facilitate such evaluation and another approach I've found more to the point. To evaluate bore on such barrels, make a pin gauge. Brass works, or steel. If you don't have a lathe use a drill to turn the stock and file to close, fine grit wet or dry to finish. When is 'just barely' slips in the bore put your mic to that and call it done. For groove, measure the groove to barrel OD with a dial caliper, land to OD same way, giving a reasonable groove depth. The rest is elementary math, adding bore and two grooves.......close enough for this application since bore is the important measure and you're stuffing paper in the grooves.