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Thread: can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Smith & Wesson Schofield (.45) revolver made in 1876?

    I would research to see if that old revolver is in a condition that make it too valuable to shoot.

  2. #62
    Boolit Master Castaway's Avatar
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    Toot, think you meant volume, not grains

  3. #63
    Boolit Master super6's Avatar
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    Black Powder Grades, Sizes and Mesh
    This chart contains black powder grain sizes of commonly used black powders as well as a comparison of Blasting and Sporting grades.

    Black Powder Grades & Equivalent Sizes (in mm)
    Sporting Grades (G) Grain Size (in mm) Blasting Grades (A) Grain Size (in mm)
    1FA 8.0-4.0
    Cannon Grade 4.76-1.68 2FA 4.76-1.68
    1FG 1.68-1.19 4FA 1.68-.84
    2FG 1.19-.59
    3FG .84-.29 5FA .84-.297
    4FG .42-.15 7FA .42-.149
    Meal D .42
    5FG .149 Fine .149


    Commonly used Black Powder Grain Mesh Sizes

    GRADE MESH RANGE
    FA 3 - 5
    2FA 4 - 12
    3FA 10 - 16
    4FA 12 - 20
    5FA 20 - 50
    6FA 30 - 50
    7FA 40 - 100
    Meal D + 50
    Fine Meal + 100
    X-Fine Meal +140
    Cannon Grade 4-12
    1FG 12-20
    2FG 16-30
    3FG 20-50
    4FG 40-100
    5FG +100

    Here is another for those inclined to look.
    Give me something to believe in. Poison
    Arosmith What it takes
    A 12 step program

  4. #64
    Boolit Mold
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    Go on u-tube and watch Everything Black powder about blowing up black powder barrels . Dixie gun works welded the end of a barrel shut and filled it with black powder & they say it didn't blow up. I have heard a ton of horror stories about cataclysmic events, but I have never seen one or evidence of one. I have only seen them blow up ML barrels with smokeless powder. I make my own BP so mine isn't as screened as the Factory stuff.

  5. #65
    Boolit Mold
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    Go on u-tube and watch Everything Black powder about blowing up black powder barrels . Dixie gun works welded the end of a barrel shut and filled it with black powder & they say it didn't blow up. I have heard a ton of horror stories about cataclysmic events, but I have never seen one or evidence of one. I have only seen them blow up ML barrels with smokeless powder. I make my own BP so mine isn't as screened as the Factory stuff. You would think that there would be a ton of blown up barrels from the civil war but I haven't seen any evidence of any, Has anybody else?

  6. #66
    Boolit Man Hondolane's Avatar
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    The cost of a can of 2 or 3 FG and knowing your gun, eyes and fingers will be ok versus a chance or a risk? I'm not saying that 4FG wouldn't work, but black is an explosive, so I'd buy the right powder as recommended.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by mozeppa View Post
    it's all i have in black... well can you?

    case full & compressed?
    I have always been told no 4FG will not run well as main charge BUT in an old Lyman black powder book they used 4FG in 44 revolver , I wonder if it was fact or misprint?
    I doubt pressure is the problem if used in 45 colt cartridge stability in ignition could be. In Greener's book he had a image of a fine British Express double rifle shattered by using FFFG equivalent rather then FG . The case was a 3 or 3 1/4" black powder case and it was said the powder detonated rather then burned .
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  8. #68
    Boolit Buddy
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    Depends on what they mean by "shattered". You have to remember that those guns were pretty much soldered together.

  9. #69
    Boolit Master

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    The drawing showed a mess both chambers destroyed it looked like a detonation but these old books had few pictures as the technology was so new.

    https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Its-Devel.../dp/1616088427
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  10. #70
    Boolit Mold
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    The only reason i do not use 4f in my .44 bp revolvers is that it is so fine it runs out the nipple hole. I do however load it in my .38 and .357 cases for my cartridge guns and find it more accurate than postol powders. This is probably due to the way the recoil works.

  11. #71
    Boolit Grand Master



    M-Tecs's Avatar
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    I'll be danged if I can find the article but awhile back I did read some pressures testing data on the various grades of BP. I do remember that the 4F did not product any unusual pressure spikes.

    Currently this is all I can find

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...f-black-powder

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...4F-Blackpowder

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Got the pressure test of GOEX 4fg BP in the 45 Colt completed today.

    I had six loads of GOEX 4fg under a 454190 to test: 19, 22, 25, 28 & 31 with a wheat bran filler. An additional GOEX 4fg load of 34.5 gr was slightly compressed by the bullet and required no filler.

    Under the same 454190 bullet two "full" loads of 3fg were also tested; one with 35 gr of GOEX Cartridge and one of 34.5 with some old Dupont 3fg "Superfine" BP.

    Other load data;
    Cases: Winchester W-W
    Primers: Winchester WLP
    Cartridge OAL: 1.600"
    Bullet lube 8/5 beeswax to olive oil.

    Velocity: Corrected to muzzle

    Test firearm: Contender with TC Factory 10" barrel
    PSI/velocity measured with Oehler M43 PBL.
    SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt is 14,000 psi.

    The "standard" modern 45 Colt BP load of 35 gr GOEX Cartridge gave a velocity of 852 fps at 13,500 psi.

    The 34.5 gr load of Dupont Superfine 3fg gave a velocity of 1005 fps at 13,500 psi.

    Note: The lowest pressure reading I have got with this barrel is 11,300 psi. Understanding it takes 7000 psi +/- to expand a FL sized case before it can put pressure on the barrel. Then and additional amount is needed to "strain" the barrel so the strain gauge can measure it.

    With the GOEX 4fg loads of 19, 22, 25 & 28 gr there just wasn't enough pressure generated to measure. With the 31 gr load only 30% of the shots generated enough pressure to get a measurement. That simply means all the shots with no psi measurement had less than 11,300 psi.

    The 31 gr load of GOEX 4fg that gave a measurement gave a velocity of 969 fps at 12,300 psi.

    The 34.5 gr GOEX 4fg load gave a velocity of 1025 fps at 12,100 psi.

    Note: The 31 gr load had a wheat bran filler. The 34.5 gr load had no filler.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-13-2023 at 05:58 PM.
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  12. #72
    Boolit Master
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    I can't speak to Swiss; the only commercial BP I have ever used is Goex and I can tell you it is not that consistent in size. If you ever screened Goex 3F, you'll see quite a bit falling through to the next sieve sizes. That being said, their 3F has 2F and 4F mixed in at measurable proportions (I believe that info is mentioned earlier in this thread). However, I don't believe that means much in the long run, especially if you are compressing the load. All of the powder in a batch has the same ratios of ingredients, so the speed and pressure won't vary that much. I've shot my homemade BP over a chronograph and my 2F is actually faster that my 3F - only explanation I can come up with is that the larger grains have more air space and allow a slightly faster burn.

    Regardless, I seriously doubt anyone will blow up a sound firearm with 4F that the same charge in 3F wouldn't damage as well.

  13. #73
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    I wondered the same thing about 4F in the 44-40, did a thread on it a couple of years back. I’m Still kicking!
    But…. Recently TxCowboy52 gave me some 44-40 ammo and brass in a trade. In this bounty were 20 Balloon head Small Primer brass. Hmmmm.
    Turns out that 34 grains of Dupont FFFF to the base of a Lee 200gr rnfp (cast of pure PB) produces a pleasant, seemingly powerful load- but not the level of my Unique hunting loads.
    The problem is that my H&R Topper won’t fire all of these cartridges. Seating the primers was quite easy- perhaps they used a special height small primer? Maybe meant for the old convex face primers? I’ve never had a misfire before this.
    The fired cases and primers looked normal.
    No drama there.
    John Taylor nailed it on the fouling. I could feel the crust breaking loose with the hot water patches.
    The two that did go off would have dropped a deer at 40 yards.
    This is entered into the “Now I Know” category.


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  14. #74
    Boolit Mold
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    A lot of interesting comments here. In short i believe the answer to be yes, you can. And safely too. I have only used Swiss 4f in my revolver and that is thousands of rounds on. It works well and provides for an accurate load. I have shot many at full compressed fill for 100m shooting and have no issues. I load it in my .357 for my Manurhin revolver and it gives excellent accuracy, obviously the danger here is non existant as this is a revolver for pistol powders.
    The one thing that has not really been mentioned is that all powder makers manufacture 4f to differing sizes and that may have bearing on the issue. Personally the only thing that has stopped me using some 4f is the fact it is too fine and literally drains out the nipple. If it does not do that i use it. Click image for larger version. 

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check