Any pet 6.5 Japanese loads?

[Bullshop]

A cupla I woulds for ya.
Stay away from boat tail bullets.
Anneal your bullets.
Use the longest bullets I could find with the most parrellel sides I could find.
You wont see any gain by using match bullets in those rifles. A boat tail is sacrificing bearing surface and I think you need all you can get. Give them things what they was made for, long heavy round nose bullets totally supported for nearly all thier length.
Now if ya cant find nuthin I got some old Herters bullets that might do it for ya.
Wut ya got ta trade?
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Mike Venturino]

Bullshop: The single original 6.5mm JAP. military round I have isn't roundnose. Its spitzer, but not so pointed as most.

Actually, like I said above the Nosler HPBT so far has given the best accuracy. The Speer flatbase has given the worse. I'm hoping the 140 grain Hornady flatbase does well and hope to try it this afternoon or tomorrow if its not too hot here.

What I'm trying to do is duplicate Japanese nominal military ballistics which had a 139 grain bullet at "about" 2500 fps according to various reloading manuals.

Thanks for the offer on the Herters bullets. The last ones of those I tried were 180 grain .30 calibers in 1968 and never wanted anymore. Many of them blew to pieces and never reached the target out of my .30-06.

I'll keep you posted on what I learn as I delve deeper into this 6.5mm thing. Thanks for the interest.
MLV

[bruce drake]

Mike,

Like you, I've never had much success with Varget in 6.5Jap. Its weird because it works fine for me in 223 and 308 cases. And those cases are on both ends of the 6.5Jap's case capacity. I'm not a ballistician by trade or training but I think it prefers the slow to medium powders over the newer medium rate powders.

For some reason I've always stayed with Hodgdons BL-C(2) (33.5gr) and IMR 4895 (32.0) for my 140gr jacketed loads for this caliber.

I've been accused of keeping too much brass around my garage by my wife. I subtly remind her that she has never found my reloading gear or have I cleaned my rifles in her sewing room either.

Bruce

[Bullshop]

Dang it all anyways!!! Man I aint neva gonna get rid a them Herters bullets.
Maybe I kin drill um through and sell um to the indians for beads. Ya think?
Blessings on ya!
BIC/BS

[castshooter-too]

Just to stick my 2 cents in; I've had the most sucess with H380 and sierra 120gr. pro hunters. @ 50 YDS. It shoots to point of aim with the parymid front sight. By the way we're talking type 38 carbine here.

[Mike Venturino]

Since I ruined the majority of my 6.5 JAP brass by full length sizing it, I was looking to order more today. Norma stuff is around $100 per 100. The Graf stuff made by Hornady was $43 per 100, so guess what I ordered?

MLV

[EDG]

Mike,
I have a couple of 6.5 Jap cal rifles. I will provide a few observations.

1. There is an article in one of the old Handloader magazines that has chamber dimensions for 3 rifles. The 6.5 Jap has the same sloppy chamber issues the .303 British has in Lee-Enfields. Probably the best starting place to make cases for the 6.5 Jap would be to turn the rims down on .303 British cases. It would be a lot of work but they will fit the chamber well after all the work.

2. The chamber throat is about a 1/2" long funnel from the case mouth to the rifling. There is no step in the chamber at the case mouth. The throat diameter begins at the same diameter as the chamber diameter for the case neck. I suspect this will complicate getting any bullet and especially cast bullets to shoot well. You might want to make a chamber cast of your throats.

3. Check the rifling twist. I have had some 140 gr BTSP bullets keyhole.

4. You will find the rifling to be of the Metford form. There are no corners in the grooves or on the corners of the lands. This type of rifling will require a good surface finish and a large well fitting cast bullet to avoid stripping. One of my rifles is a type 38 and has a .264 groove dia. The other is a Type I Carcano. I have not made a chamber cast of it. The Type I has the same Metford rifling form.

5. Hornady once made 140 RN bullets. They might be the easiest bullets to get to shoot well.
They were discontinued 15 or 20 years ago.

[bruce drake]

Mike and Everyone Else,

I've got the old Handloader article that EDG mentioned. If I remember right, since its in America right now and I can't readily refer back to it, the article referred to the 7.7 JAP case being nearly identical to the 303 Brit brass and that is correct.

I tried the turn down the 303 Brit brass routine about 10 years ago. It will work if you have more time than money. Basically what is required is to turn the rim off the 303B in a mini-lathe or a drill chuck and file and then cut an extractor groove with either a small file (drill) or a steel bit (lathe). Why all to trouble to do this you might ask? Because cartridges formed this way don't require their lengths to be cut down to fit and the don't bulged badly in oblong chambers as their exterior dimensions at the case head are nearly identical.

I found it was a lot easier to just use 8mm or cutdown 30-06 cases (I use 270 WIN Cases since I don't shoot that caliber and they are easy range pickup around where I live) for my 7.7 JAP Cases. The 8mm Mauser cartridges come out just 1mm short in the neck compared to the 7.7x58mm cases. The 30-06 cases can be cut to fit. They are originally 63mm in length. Couple of twists with a pipe cutter and 5mm are off the neck! I recommend annealing and neckturning once they are cut because they will last longer for you. First load is a light load to form the case and the second loading I start using for Jacketed bullets.

Unless you want to take the time to reform for these cartridges sometimes it is easier to just buy the more expensive headstamped ones.

EDG is 100% correct on the Metford rifling of the older Type 38s. They will still shoot well for you. I think each barrel has to be tested because my rifles have no problems shooting the 140gr Match BTs from Sierra and Hornady and mine enjoy the 140gr long lead round nosed bullets as well.

Bruce

[Mike Venturino]

Bruce and EDG: Thanks for your responses. As for forming cases, I've done all that in my life that I ever care to. In the past I've formed, cut and altered cases for every cartridge that original Sharps rifles were chambered for and many of the old Winchester cartridges too. I intend to never do another one. Nowadays time is more precious than the money it takes to buy Graf 6.5 cases.

Since both my Type 38 and Type 97 have proven they will shoot adequately with at least a couple of factory loads, then it stands to reason they will shoot adequately with handloads IF the right combination can be found. If case life is short due to those oblong chambers then so be it. I'll buy more as needed.

Also there's that factor of duplicating military loads with bullet weight and ballistics. That is a goal of mine too. If at all possible I want a 140 grain bullet going around 2500 fps.

I've got a Type 38 carbine also but I haven't even added it to the mix yet. I have to admit that these types of challenges do make a gunwriter's life interesting. I certainly haven't encountered this sort of stuff with any other WW2 rifle in my collection.

I'll keep you informed as to my progress. (If any!)
MLV

[georgewxxx]

Mike, I know you seemed disinterested in cast in your Type 38, but if you happen to have a Lyman 266469 it weighs close to your condom boolit criteria. 37 gr of 4831 in our Type 38 chronographed 2330fps and still turned in a respectable 2" group at 100yds. I tried 42 gr of said powder and got 2610fps but a 15" pattern. The alloy was only Wheel weights or Lyman #2 if you will.

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread about using 35 Remington brass to make 6.5 Jap brass. I still use it even though I've got 100rds of Graff /NNY brass. It was extremely easy to make although a smidgen short. The 266469 is long enough to seat way out in these short cases and the 175 grain Lee cruise missile is longer yet. The best I've gotten so far with the Lee is 4" in the 6.5 Jap. It never did shoot worth a hoot in my 6.5 Mannlicher. I haven't taken time to run it in any of my Swedes yet. ...Geo

[bruce drake]

Mike,

Man if I could just drive down the road to spend some time with you on the range talking guns.

Keep plugging it at. George has some good points on the 266469 mold. Thats the mold I use. As long as the editors understand that research sometimes takes time, I figure you're going have a great article.

I'm just afraid the prices on the Arisakas are going to go up as you write about them!

Bruce

P.S. Reforming brass is always a good chore for teenage boys in the neighborhood. They do the labor for the quick trip to the range to fire a few off.

[Mike Venturino]

George: I'm not avoiding shooting cast in my 6.5s. I've just got to get the jacketed problem sorted out first.

You might know that if Lyman offers two 6.5mm moulds I got the one you and Bruce did not recommend. I've got some of the 266673 loaded up for when I'm ready to start with cast.

Maybe today I can get back to the 6.5 shooting. I tripped over my dog and jammed my right shoulder into the wall a few days back and that has stopped this project temporarily.

Bruce: Hopefully someday when you get back to the US we can do that gun talking you mentioned. I never get bored with it.

MLV

[Typecaster]

Great. Now I guess I've got to move my Jap projects to the fore...I thought it was just my rifle that had an oversize chamber.

Thanks a lot, guys.

Richard

[Larry Gibson]

Mike V

Quite a few years back a friend gave me a "sporterized" M38 he'd found in a house he had bought and was remodeling. The sights had been removed and the stock cut off with a recoil pad crudely attached. The barrel had been hack sawed back to 23" and a poor attempt to square it up with a file was made. The bore was pretty rough. Some time later in a trade I came by a box of Norma Jap ammo that had 18 rounds in it. At that time I had more time than money so I thought I'd try the M38 with the ammo I had. First thing was to crown the barrel so i cut it back to 22" and crowned it. The bedding was very poor so i bedded it with some MicroBed I had. I also refitted the recoil pad. Scrounging through the parts I had I found a Weaver base so I D&T'd the receiver for that. I also had a Weaver 2.5X scope that seemed appropriate. A thorough scrubbing of the bore didn't seem to make much difference in its sewer pipe appearance. I didn't hold out much hope fore any accuracy as I had previous bores of other rifle that were as bad shoot patterns instead of groups.

A quick trip to the range gave a pleasant surprise - 2-3" groups with the Norma factory. I also noticed that the cases were horrendously expanded in the web area. I thought I could do better or at least as well with reloads. I knew any FL sizing of those expanded cases would result in a case separation in short order. So while pontificating how to neck size I came up with a plan. Laying the jap cases by a 6.5x55 Swede case it looked like the Swede die would do. I took the decal/expander rod out of the FL 6.5x55 die and used the die as a Lee Loader. The jap cases when tapped into the Swede RCBS FL die neck sized the jap Norma cases perfectly. Decapping was easy with a Lee decapping rod. Priming and loading were of normal routine along with using the Swede seating die to seat the bullets.

As I already loaded for 6.5 I had several different types and weights of 6.5 bullets on hand. The 129 gr Hornady SP over 36 gr of H4895 gave the best accuracy right at 2-2.5". Velocity was 2650 fps (I had an Oehler M10 chronograph back then). I had a partial box of Hornady 160 RNs and they shot really well over 32 gr H4895 but I did not chronograph those. The jap was put on the back burner as after a few firings I got case head separation anyways. Norma ammo was pretty expensive so I didn't shoot it for a while.

Several years later when the 6.5-308 was becoming popular (pre .260 Rem days) I was discussing the concept of a poor man's 6.5-308 with a friend who had a 6.5 Swede Reamer. The concept was to shorten the 6.5 die so a .308 would be necked down. It slightly increased the body taper but the cartridge worked out fine. Chambering a barrel simply took using the 6.5 Swede reamer to short chamber the barrel so the newly formed case headspaced. I then thought of the old jap and got one of the jap case out that were fire formed for that rifle. It appeared if the rifle was rechambered for the PM's 6.5-308 then the chamber would be cleaned up and the new cases would fit perfectly. The old Jap was rechambered and the new cartridge is a perfect fit. Feeding has not been a problem. The old rifle has shot several sub 2" groups, mostly with the 129 Hornady at 2650 fps with RL19 and H414.

You probably won't want to do this with your original rifle though. However for someone who has a shooter then it might be considered. Just thought I'd tell the story and let you know the old japs can still shoot.

Guess I'd better mention something about cast bullets. Lyman's 266455 cast of linotype and left as cast (.267-.268") over 10 gr of Unique run 1500 fps and shoot 2-3 moa out of the rough barrel.

Larry Gibson

[Mike Venturino]

Just an update on my 6.5 JAP trials and tribulations. Yesterday I put another four loads through my T38 and T97. A couple shot within 4 inches at 100 yards from the T38 but a couple were more like 6 inches.

A couple of loads from the T97 likewise were 6 inches but here's something interesting. Two loads from the T97 threw the first shot wide by three to four inches and then put the other four inside about two to three inches. I have hopes for those loads. Starting to suspect the scope of being faulty and with one load left to go I shot it with the T97's iron sights. It was lousy at about 6 inches.

So now I'm going to try again the loads that put 4 shots close and shoot them with the T97's iron sights to check out the scope for reliability. We'll see.

I've done reloading projects on a lot of guns in the past 30 years but never seen the likes of this before. I guess I'm going to have to dust off my T38 carbine and see what some of these loads do from it.

My new 100 rounds of Hornady brass should be here today so that is something else to factor in.

Thanks for listening.
MLV

[Rich S]

FWIW, i have had good luck with the remmington bulk 140gr psp bullets in my Type 38 carbine using imr4064 (i'll get the exact load if you are interested but it is in the 40gr area)
also, you may want to check in with these fellows, Roy Boone, AKA RiceOne is one of many knowledgeable folks there but he also makes and sells a die to form brass from .308 should any of the members here be interested, i use his set and am happier with that brass than any other i have tried.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...rms-Forum.html
Regards,
Rich

[KirbyAUS]

Guys,
for years I used .220 Swift brass in my T38 rifle and carbine and it worked great, though labour intensive. Norma brass is always undersized for some reason.
NNY 6.5 Jap brass is great.
My prefered load is 31.5gn AR2206 ( Aussie equivalent of IMR3031 ) with a Rem 140gn C/L.
My rifle will hold the bullseye at 300metres with that load in Service Rifle matches.
My T38 carbine on the other hand is hopeless with all my reloads !
Varget (Aussie AR2208) doesn't work well in the 6.5 Jap for some reason, though my T99 in 7.7 loves 43gn with a 170gn .311 projectile in necked down 8mm Mauser brass.

Kirby.

[bruce drake]

Rich,

What did the swage die set you back? And do you have Roy's snail mail/e-mail address for me to get in contact with him. I might be interested if the price is right to try swaging some .243Winchester or 260 Remington cases down. Could you PM me the information?

Hey RayG, How is the progress going on your cast loads?

MikeV, I see we are starting to get a consensus on Varget in 6.5 JAP. Even Down-Under they've got issues with it. And dogs think they belong underfoot don't they. My minature schnauzer almost put me down the basement steps with a full armload of wood for the fireplace last year. The wife still doesn't understand why the washer has a dent in the front. Let's just say the wood went before I did and two good chunks bounced down and "kissed" the washer.

Bruce

[Bret4207]

Just an update on my 6.5 JAP trials and tribulations. Yesterday I put another four loads through my T38 and T97. A couple shot within 4 inches at 100 yards from the T38 but a couple were more like 6 inches.

A couple of loads from the T97 likewise were 6 inches but here's something interesting. Two loads from the T97 threw the first shot wide by three to four inches and then put the other four inside about two to three inches. I have hopes for those loads. Starting to suspect the scope of being faulty and with one load left to go I shot it with the T97's iron sights. It was lousy at about 6 inches.

So now I'm going to try again the loads that put 4 shots close and shoot them with the T97's iron sights to check out the scope for reliability. We'll see.

I've done reloading projects on a lot of guns in the past 30 years but never seen the likes of this before. I guess I'm going to have to dust off my T38 carbine and see what some of these loads do from it.

My new 100 rounds of Hornady brass should be here today so that is something else to factor in.

Thanks for listening.
MLV

Mike-Time to go through and check the bedding, bearing, crown etc. I have an Arisaka converted to 6.5x 257 Roberts. Shoots 140 Sierras okay with a starting load. Still waiting for time to play with it.Hornady still makes the 160RN and Grafs sells a .268 jacketed bullet intended for the 6.5 Carcano for those with generous dimensions.

[mag44uk]

I dont even own any Jap rifles and this thread is getting me going!
This is just why I find this forum so stimulating and interesting.
Regards,
Tony