Just for fun- Cast Boolit carry loads

[harley45]

Just for fun as I don't want to get into a discussion of the legal issues on handloads what would you guys carry in a self defense gun that you cast at home? Me I'd take one of my 1911s with a BD 230grain over 8.4grains of HS6.
Like I said this is just for fun I don't want to start a flame war. 8)

[C1PNR]

I can't locate my load manual right now, so this is from my CRS memory bank.

I like the 452423 in the LW Colt Commander. Wont even hazard a guess what the load uses, but it's a middle of the road velocity that the Colt really likes.

The other choice would probably be a 429421 in another middle of the road loading out of my 3" Bulldog. Not quite the razor sharp accuracy of the Commander, but a little heaver boolit. And it's a "Point and Pull" situation, no safety to maneuver, or forget!

[Hardcast]

Just for fun as I don't want to get into a discussion of the legal issues on handloads what would you guys carry in a self defense gun that you cast at home? Me I'd take one of my 1911s with a BD 230grain over 8.4grains of HS6.
Like I said this is just for fun I don't want to start a flame war. 8)

Out here in rural America, I would not hesitate a bit to carry a 1911 loaded with BD 230s. That is, as long as they function well and shoot to POA. Oh yea, there is one problem: I DON'T HAVE A BD 230 MOLD !!!!!!
However, I have access to Lyman 452423s and with just a little more testing I'm sure I'll be carrying them in my Wilson KZ-45. I still have hope that we have enough interest for a BD 230 group buy later this summer. BTW, I am loading the 452423s with AA#9.

[imashooter2]

Hmmmm... I normally carry compact 9's with JHP's. I guess if I was to carry cast I'd want it big to start with. The Lyman 452630 over 5.0 of WST in my Kimber would do the job.

[DOUBLEJK]

Ifin' I did it would be a #358156 in H.P. form cast outa 20 Lead to 1 Tin n stuck in a S&W 3" 60.....

[waksupi]

I keep the BD 45's in both my carry pistols. Around 5 gr. Bullseye. Not the fastest load, but sure to leave a serious boo-boo.
I'd asked one of my friends, a local judge about this subject one time. He says he would be more inclined to figure malice with the various high tech defense rounds on the market, than the guy with reloads. He also says if it isn't some trash bag doing the shooting, the case probably wouldn't make a difference for Joe Citizen defending life, family, or property. They wouldn't do time, regardless. He's a reloader, and does a lot of shooting, so like me, most of the people he knows reloads, and considers it a natural thing.

[harley45]

I agree with your friend the Judge about handloads I was just curious what everyone would carry if they carried their own and I've seen the legal discussions overshadow some pretty good threads before.
Eric

[Scrounger]

I think a lot of people are fooling themselves on that issue. A smart lawyer has to be able to make either side of any issue work for him. If you use handloads, I'd say you set out to design a load that would kill or maim someone. If you used jacketed hollowpoints, I'd say you used bullets designed to open up and tear a lot of tissue and cause massive trauma. Solid bullets? I'd contend that you planned for your bullet to get the most penetration possible and cause two open wounds to hasten blood loss and death. I don't care what bullet or knive or whatever you use, I would make it sound really bloodthirsty and gruesome to the jury. That's what lawyers do. If you think one kind of bullet is more acceptable than another for shooting someone, start shopping for a lawyer right now. It was probably some lawyer who said that in the beginning, anyway. Someone asked him a question; since he was going to be paid for his legal opinion, he had to say something. Same thing with Remington changing their nice trigger to something terrible. Their (paid) legal department justified their salary by saying that. Any lawyer knows it wouldn't make a dang bit of difference in court whether the trigger pull was 10 ounces or 10 pounds. If you're a lawyer, you work with what you have. You make whats there work for you.

[Urny]

In my Colt Commander, I carry NEI 231-45 (or is it the other way around?) over some Unique, Winchester LP and anyone's case. The boolits are tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, then in mica, and sized .451 in a push through sizer.

[harley45]

This is a fun thread so far. It's funny three months ago I'd never heard of a 452423 and now look how popular it seems to be.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Currently I am carrying Federal Hi-Shok 185 JHP in my Colt Gold Cup. Soon as I can get the new Springfield Ultra Compact 9mm listed on my CCW it will be loaded with Speer 124 Gold Dot JHP. When I buy a box of cartridges I write the date on the box, and when it gets to be a year old I replace it and shoot up the old stuff in practice. I don't worry about some thug's lawyer raking me over the coals for carrying handloads, but Murphy's Law dictates that if lube migration ever gives you a misfire, it will be at the worst possible moment. curmudgeon

[Four Fingers of Death]

If we were allowed to carry, and I was to use real boolits (cast) I think I'd like to use old Elmer Keith's fav load. 245Gn SWC over 22 Gn 2400. Because the ranges would be short and the likehood of firing a lot of shots remote, I think I'd cast them soft so that the suckers would give me the best of both worlds. Flat nose for max impact and to initiate lift off of the target, followed by max expansion to ensure minimum number of witnesses at the courthouse. The legal system of both our countries is clogged enough and the people working there busy enough without us good folk adding to their troubles.

I loved that line in 'Sixguns' by old Elmer when he said something about a shootout where the two cops used 44 Specials with their own cast reloads to take out a number of bad guys, something along the line about public safety being taken care of with minimal expense to the taxpayer.

Mick.

I think I might have to let my head go and buy a DA Smith or Ruger (I like the look of the blued Redhawk with ivory grips) The old faithful SA Rugers I pack are a mite slow past the first six rounds. Plenty of rapid bang and smoke up to then though. Probably have to pack both of them rather that a speedloader.

[Willbird]

Honestly I do not give a hoot what the Judge or Mr. Ayoob or anybody else thinks or does,If a situation develops where I must kill another human then the best tools for the job should be used.

that said I would choose a boolit that will run 1000 rounds without a malfunction in either a revolver or semi-auto. I would choose a boolit heavy for it's dia, in 45 acp probably a 220-250 grain roundflat, in a 357 a 158 round/flat. I would function test these in heat treated WW metal, the carry loads would be 1/20 lead tin, the primers and the bullets would be sealed, I would seal the boolits before crimping, and I would use a roll crimp on revolver ammo that JUST snugged against the boolit in the crimp groove and I would apply it while the sealer was still tacky

In my mind a 1911 type pistol does not rely on bullet expansion in 45 acp for proper performance, the noce thing about most 230 grain HP is they have a nice large meplet.

Ditto on the 357 actually, in real world testing on bad guys even 110 jhp often does not expand.

Bill

[sundog]

Bill, I don't care much to listen to stuff like Mr. Ayoob puts out either. Supposition. As far as I know there have not been any problems wherein the [defensive] shooting has been justified. Here's the real deal. Your life is threatened and you neutralize the threat. You're alive and maybe the perp isn't (better if he isn't so that he can't tell his [stilted] version of what happened, i.e., lie). If the perp really is a bad guy, he'll already been known, and you with a CCW are pretty much squeeky clean after having gone through the CCW issue process. I'm a whole lot less worried about the criminal side than the civil side. Even if I have to neutralize a threat within the confines of my house for which I would be completely justified and protected under our state's 'Make My Day Law', I would still have to be concerned about a civil suit even though there is some protection from that also contained in the law. Outside my house I use the green, amber, red system to determine my threat level. I like very much to stay green and avoid ANY situation in which I am not comfortable. I had to stand someone down, on my property, with a well loaded shotgun several years ago. It was not a pleasant experience, but the presence of shotgun, eventually pointed directly at him was enough to convince him he was in the wrong place. I remember him saying, "are you gonna shoot me?" My response was almost automatic, "not if I don't have to." He immediately vacated the premises and did not return. I've had a couple other encouters over the years. After thinking about them the common thread has been that deadly force has to be a last resort and needs to be explainable, in detail (after action report). My training in the army taught me that any encouter has to be overwhelming and decisive (even though in practice it doesn't always work out that way). That applies. If the intent is to neutralize a threat, then you must commit to that end.

btw, I carry a .45 with cast boolits. First (and this is the BIG one), committment (if your head ain't screwed on right you have no business carrying); second, dependability of the weapon, ammo, holster, etc; third, ability to use it; fourth, accuracy; and last a load that will convince a perp it's not worth it. I'm currently loaded with Lee 200 gr RF and SMP231. Sorry if I got a little long on this one.... And please don't quote me in court as this is only a lay person's opinion. sundog

p.s. Notice I called the firearm 'weapon'. I seldom use that term.

[felix]

It happened to me too. A guy started to take the screen off of my bedroom window when I was living (just after college graduation) in the center of KC, MO. A bright street light was behind him, and I could see he was extremely well dressed for the occassion. A suit, but no tie, if you can visualize that for such a street criminal. After he put BOTH hands on the sill to pull himself up and over into the opened window, I slammed shut a 760 pump (30-06). He froze solid as an iceberg. I yelled something like "you'd better get outta' here", and nothing happened. So I simply shoved the barrel into his chest with a heavy duty swing, after taking a windup much like a baseball pitcher would do in the old days. That guy was pushed out 5 yards minimum, flat on his back. He still did not move. I think it took 5 whole seconds for the adrenal gland to kick in, and then he ran faster than Micky could possibly do the bases when he was 18. He was gone in a flash. Those apartments where I lived had no more breakins for at least the 2 years I remained there. ... felix

[grumble]

...the common thread has been that deadly force has to be a last resort and needs to be explainable, in detail (after action report)...

Good post, Sundog! I do have a comment about the quoted part, though.

While a full explananation is definately needed, and should be articulated, immediately after an incident is the exact WRONG time to test it out. When the cops show up after you call them, only minimal facts should be related to them, with no comments. It is FAR too easy to say something intended to be helpful that will instead set off red flags in the investigator's mind.

The info the cops need is something like, "he tried to break in, I feared for my family's safety, and after verbal warnings, I shot him. " NO more details than that until you've had a chance to talk to a lawyer and get the story straight in your own mind. The excitement of the moment can cause a lot of blathering about what you were thinking instead of what you actually did, and that can get you in trouble. Also, your mind will try to "connect the dots" of the images you have of the incident, and might well lead to false conclusions that you may, at the moment, think to be facts.

Bottom line is, bounce the story off a lawyer before you tell it to the cops. All cops aren't like our own Deputy Al, and some eager-beaver may want another arrest and conviction added to his annual performance report. Our legal system cares a lot less about "justice" than it does processing meat through the system.

[StarMetal]

Sundog

I'd like to ask you about the law in Oklahoma. When I lived there in the early 80's I was told, by the lawenforcement office, that say you had a 10,000 acre ranch, with the house dead center in it, and a crimminal "broke" into your home forceably, that you could legally shoot and kill him right up to your fenceline should he have fed. Did they change it now? I know some states that even if you shot someone inside your home, that he broke into, was armed and intended to do bodily harm, you still ..well...had alot of explaining to do. Maybe even in trouble. I liked that about Oklahoma. By the way when we lived there we got broken into, but we weren't home. Back then the big thing was house robberies, still looks like it is down that ways.

Joe

[sundog]

Grumble, right on. "Officer, I feared for my life." The story you tell better be true, consistent, and indeed on the side of being threatened and applying deadly force because you feared for your life. Don't shot some bastard while he is running away..., even if he needs shooting.

Joe, the Oklahoma State Legislature with prompting from the Oklahoma Rifle Association and other groups has been VERY supportive of personal defense rights in recent years. Oklahoma Range Protection Act, Make My Day Law, and CCW, some/all with several amendments to make them useable for the citizenry. I don't think you will get an argument from any LEO or DA in the state if you take out a burglar in your house. Outside your house, even on your own property is a little different, you'd better be that you're getting ready to get hurt before you pull the trigger. That decision making process is going to be a little different for each person and situation - part of the making sure your head is screwed on straight.

Not very long ago (couple months maybe) a doctor stopped to help a woman in distress from her husband, outside town (Henryetta, OK), roadside. He took her to town and while on the way was rammed at least once by the husband. He drove to the police station. When he parked and got out to help the woman in he was confronted by the man and the doc told him to stop and stay away and was threatened verbally. The man kept coming so the doc pulled his CCW and shot him, twice. Had he had this confrontation while helping the woman roadside it might have been a little different - read further. In town, when personally confronted and directly threatened he had cause, not because he was in town, but because of the ramming incident in the car and the direct threat. btw, this doc had just returned from a tour in Iraq (suppose maybe he didn't want to put up with any bs?). In Oklahoma you can defend yourself, family, and employees. The law is pretty clear on that. You can't jump into the middle of a street brawl and try to break it up just 'cause yer carryin' though. sundog

[StarMetal]

Sundog

Years ago when I lived in Claremore we had an incident. My family had been telling me they think there is a peeping Tom. Well I worked shifts and wasn't aware. My son said he usually see someone go by the window at about 10:30 at nite. Well I was off, and I got my 45 LC Ruger Blackhawk that I had some cut down 410 shotgun shells loaded with this real real fine shot, finer then #12. I had two left. Well I grabbed the lawn chair and dragged it down under my one tree about 25 yards from the house. Sure enough, here comes a figure from my left, dressed in all black, first looks in the dining room window, then goes over to the patio and is looking in there. Well I cranked the hammer back quietly on the Ruger and pulled the trigger, and dang dead primer. I hammered it back on that second one and pulled the trigger and BOOM. The guy jumped straight up and I swear that the bottome of his feet were 3 foot of the concrete, grabbed his ass and yelled, and started running. I ran him down and put the gun in back, it was empty, but he didn't know that. He immediately drops to his knees and starts pleading for his life. I recognized him, the neighbor right up the road, real respectable, church goer, had to great kids, a boy and a girl. I marched him into the house, told the wife to call the sheriff. She was crying, thought I had killed him. I said no, I had birdshot. The sheriff come out and arrested him. I was quite the hero of the neighborhood as I reckon alot of folks had been peeped on. The DA called me a few days later and asked I drop the charges because the fellow apparently had this same problem in another town. He said his wife and kids are decent, and it really would ruin their lives if I pressed charges and they had to jail him, losing his job and all. Well I let it go. There was no more peeping after that. My friends at the refinery laughed their asses off hearing about it. Oh, one thing. the sheriff told the fellow we caught that if I had been an Okie, he'd been dead cause an Okie would have had bullets in that gun instead of birdshot. Well, I never intended to kill a peeping Tom, and wanted no accidential shooting or killing. Funny too the sheriff asked him what he was doing at 10:30 at night and the fellow says jogging. Sheriff asks at night? He said it's hot during the day, which it is in Oklahoma in the summer. Then the sheriff says dressed in all black and carrying stones in your pockets? He didn't have a comment about the black clothing, but commented the stones were to throw at my German Shepherd, which I did have one. You know what, meanest dog I ever owned and he's lucky the dog wasn't out, he might have been killed then, and those little driveway gravel stones wouldn't have done a thing to deter my dog. All in all it was quite an experience. Life in Oklahoma was quite exhilarating to say the least.

Joe

[Willbird]

Everybody that owns a gun needs to read "Unintended Consequances" by John Ross.

Say NOTHING to the police, Lawyer up immediately.

saying NOTHING cannot be twisted or held against you nearly as much as opening your mouth.

NO you do not have anything to hide, but by the same token they have no right to demand answers from you without a shyster present. Being "nice" to them will not change the outcome in a positive way.

Never EVER consent to any type of search of your person or your property. they can go ahead and search anyway but the burden of proof is much higher. Not every police officer is honest, and they do not have your best interest in mind nearly as much as you and your shyster do.

Talk to NOBODY, not one person about what happened, that is for your lawyer and you.

and inside your own house if the police don't come within a couple hours it's time to feed the hogs

Bill