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Thread: 38 Spec 158gr +P Loads?

  1. #121
    Boolit Master
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    From a 6" K38, I'd BET that both of the loads you list are 1000+ f/s performers.
    To answer one of the questions posed, the diff between 900 f/s and 1000 f/s from a .38 at 100 yards is about 2" of drop. At 50 yards it's considerably less. That's tighter than I can hold with any revolver at either range.
    Even so, greater velocity tends to simplify many matters in handgunning, if the bullet weight can be kept constant or nearly so. For most purposes, I'd rather have 158 gr. at 1000 f/s than a 110 gr. at 1250 f/s. I HAVE been accused of being too conservative about such things, but I also know what's worked for me.
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  2. #122
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Barrel-cylinder gap is as important as barrel length. A S&W Model 14-3 set up for target wadcutter would generally leave the factory with a cylinder gap of pass 0.007/ hold 0.008 to mitigate against lead deposits from firing wadcutter ammo from binding cylinder rotation. A duty gun intended for use with jacketed service loads would normally be assembled to pass 0.004/ hold 0.005, resulting in a Delta-V of. about +30 fps with wadcutter and +50 fps with +P comparing guns of same barrel length with min. vs. max. gap.

    These days it is common to find a new in box S&W with barrel-cylinder gap of 0.010" which never would have shipped in my day. My 1964 Colt Official Police with 0.004" gap consistently gives higher velocity than my buddy's 6" S&W 14. My 1929 6-inch Colt OP with similar 0.004" gap produces 1000 fps with Saeco #348 146-grain DEWC with 3.5 grains of Bullseye. The tighter .355 groove diameter in the Colts gives a slight velocity advantage over the .358+ S&W also.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 06-24-2022 at 05:53 PM.
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  3. #123
    Boolit Buddy
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    I never came close to the published velocities out of my 14-3. I ended up about 100-150fps behind on average. I think the only time I went over 1000fps with a 158 was with some Longshot, and possibly again with a 4F bp load I tried once. I now shoot 148 plated HBWC's exclusively from my 38's, and powder coated cast 158's from my 357 at full velocity with good results and very little leading. Though I haven't been out in some time.

  4. #124
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Interesting. From my made in 1953 Smith M and P four inch 3.5 grains Bullseye and a 148 WC gets 870-890 fps depending upon temperature which I’m quite satisfied with. This is top end standard pressure and not Plus P and will do anything that needs doing.

    Given the potential of lead bullets and standard pressure loads which give fully adequate service to any purpose I have for a four or even two inch 38, standard pressure 38 is all I use anymore. I treat my aluminum 638 very gently and no Plus P shooting of even infrequent use happens except rarely. From the 1.875” barrel about 810 fps is the max velocity obtainable using standard pressure limits from a 158 SWC or RN/RNFP and in a light aluminum snubby it is the most I can manage well in repeat fire. In truth less power is more manageable yet. On two legged vermin penetration is still vastly adequate.

  5. #125
    Boolit Buddy
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    I was nearer to the listed velocities with faster powder IIRC, Clays, than I was with CFE pistol or Longshot. I might have been using CCI primers with loads that called for Winchester at the time however...

  6. #126
    Boolit Buddy
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    How about looking for a Security Six?

  7. #127
    Boolit Master 35 Whelen's Avatar
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    Either 7.3 gr. of Blue Dot or 10.0 gr. of 2400 with a 160-ish gr.cast SWCHP (both +P loads) yielded 1000 fps out of all of my 4" K Frames which are three Model 10's and a Model 15.

    35W
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  8. #128
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntingsgr8 View Post
    I'm planning on investing in a very reasonably priced S&W 14-3 38 Spec in the near future. I know that these guns were built for target shooting, and that they can easily utilize loads with +P level pressures. I was tempted to get a 586, but cast bullet velocities don't vary that much between the 38+P loads, and the 357 mag. While I plan to mostly shoot standard level loads (158gr-800fps) out of this gun, I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead.
    For what it's worth, my Smith and Wesson 642 airweight .38 snubby is MUCH more enjoyable and considerably more accurate when loaded with MILD ammo. such as a 158 grain LRN over 4 grains of trail Boss. Those +P loads do nothing more than create more recoil and make more noise. If the load is not accurate, what good is it?

  9. #129
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muzzle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Last edited by robertbank; 07-05-2022 at 10:30 AM.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muscle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

    Take Care

    Bob
    I concur with robertbank, except that the older I get (a good thing?) the more I seem to favour revolvers over pistols for all except Bullseye-type competition. I felt compelled to complement the post with an incident I witnessed at range several weeks back. To wit, a young fellow experienced extreme difficulty opening cylinder and subsequent case extraction from his (Taurus brand) .38 S&W Special revolver.
    He was gifted the (reloaded) ammo from a (his) trusted friend who regularly shot same in his wheel gun. Imho, the ammo he used was waaaay too hot for his revolver! I'd guess -- best I can do -- that the friend was loading "+p" loads with fellow's Taurus not up to the task?
    Mentioned was "recoil and muzzle blast" -- let me add the inherent danger of using any loads of greater pressures than the SPECIFIC firearm was built to handle! I provided a brass rod to tap cases out of kid's cylinder and allmost gave him a handful of mid-range .38's I had, but rethought it and instead suggested he take his revolver to a competent gunsmith and have it checked out -- and if OK, to then shoot only factory or loaded to safe levels for HIS revolver ammo. (Much to my (pleasant) surprise I was thanked; and, lad said he will heed my advise.)
    A (late) friend used to paint his "+P+ cases with a blue Sharpie so they wouldn't get mixed in... just a thought...

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muzzle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Besides improved accuracy, which is probably unlikely...I'd say if a fella was gonna carry a small 38 revolver, he might want to seek out a MAX +p+ type of load with a heavy flat nose projectile for self-defense proposes.
    That's my 2¢
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  12. #132
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    Besides improved accuracy, which is probably unlikely...I'd say if a fella was gonna carry a small 38 revolver, he might want to seek out a MAX +p+ type of load with a heavy flat nose projectile for self-defense proposes.
    That's my 2¢
    Or reconsider his options. 10 x 9MM = or> than 6x 38spl in any configuration I can think of in a similar sized package. At the very least you can miss more often...:>)

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

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  13. #133
    Boolit Buddy
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    I don't see what the use would be in hot-rodding an antique 38 Special when there are magnum revolvers out there. And contrary to the original (5 years ago) posting, 357 Magnum is a LOT more powerful than 38 Special, even when pushed into +p territory. I have both J frames and i guarantee you can tell the difference if I load 4 38s and one even modestly loaded magnum in the same cylinder, even if I use the same bullet in both.

  14. #134
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muzzle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

    Take Care

    Bob
    I never noticed this thread before.

    The very first reply (by Outpost75) should have closed the book on the subject.

    The .357 magnum exists for a reason: so you don’t drop a 30,000+ PSI round into a gun designed for half that pressure.

  15. #135
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtarm View Post
    I never noticed this thread before.

    The very first reply (by Outpost75) should have closed the book on the subject.

    The .357 magnum exists for a reason: so you don’t drop a 30,000+ PSI round into a gun designed for half that pressure.
    Exactly

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  16. #136
    Boolit Master 35 Whelen's Avatar
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    I own a 4" Security Six .357 and four 4" K-Frame .38 Specials. Because of where I live, I never go out of the house without one of the .38's (rattlesnakes, stray dogs, rattlesnakes, coyotes, rattlesnakes, skunks, etc.) loaded with a 158 gr. cast SWC running just a bit over 900 fps. Very accurate load. I like these revolvers because they're trim and a full 6 oz. lighter than the Ruger. When the need arises for self defense situations, I load them with the load I mentioned above which is a 160 +/- gr. cast SWCHP running a bit over 1000 fps.

    I've never understood why folks carry heavy revolvers such as .357's and .44 Magnums then load them with Special loads. Seems more practical to me to carry the smaller, lighter revolvers and load them with heavier loads on the occasions they're needed, which in my case is rare.

    35W
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  17. #137
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35 Whelen View Post
    I own a 4" Security Six .357 and four 4" K-Frame .38 Specials. Because of where I live, I never go out of the house without one of the .38's (rattlesnakes, stray dogs, rattlesnakes, coyotes, rattlesnakes, skunks, etc.) loaded with a 158 gr. cast SWC running just a bit over 900 fps. Very accurate load. I like these revolvers because they're trim and a full 6 oz. lighter than the Ruger. When the need arises for self defense situations, I load them with the load I mentioned above which is a 160 +/- gr. cast SWCHP running a bit over 1000 fps.

    I've never understood why folks carry heavy revolvers such as .357's and .44 Magnums then load them with Special loads. Seems more practical to me to carry the smaller, lighter revolvers and load them with heavier loads on the occasions they're needed, which in my case is rare.

    35W
    For competitions such as IDPA the larger frame revolvers ir 686 or GP-100 have bigger cylinders and the wider arch of the crane allow for faster reloads. That is one reason why I have both. The other is the 38spl fully loaded might only approach the bottom end of .357mag loads. The 39spl is what it is and the .357Mag takes the "is" to another level.

    Take Care
    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  18. #138
    Boolit Buddy Hi-Speed's Avatar
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    I don’t own 38 Spl handguns anymore…only 357 Magnums. My standard loads around here are 38 Spl +P with 155-160 gr bullets. Yea, I also venture into the 38-44 world but that’s covered elsewhere. My 38 Spl +P loads particularly with Power Pistol give me very good accuracy with adequate power.

    I’m still experimenting with N340 and Accurate #5 and added BE-86 (Unique replacement) in 38 Spl +P and hope to send some loads over the chronograph this week…I will report back with the results.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check