surplus powder choice

[Harpman]

Hey gents, I'm going to be going by Pats powder next week, what do you guys recomend for all around plinking ?..calibers I reload for are7.5 swiss, 8mm, 7.62X54R, 444 marlin, and 12 gauge ...anything that would come close to use in all, I know probly isnt one for all...how bout that 872 ?.....Thinking getting maybe 24 pounds of something. So I wont have to buy powder for a long time.
Ron P.

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, Harpman, how ya doin'?

Here's my 2¢:

IMR5010/WC860/WC870/WC872 will work for your 7.5 Swiss, 8mm, and 7.62X54R. I don't have a .444 Marlin, but I recall from other's experiments that the super slow powders do not work as well in straight wall cartridges as the faster surplus powders like IMR4895. It'll get the bullet out the barrel just fine but it will leave a lot of "mummies" (partially burned powder grains) in the barrel and cartridge case that can fall into the action and jam things up like corn meal would. IMR5010/WC860/WC870/WC872 don't develop enough pressure in most shot shell applications for burning to propagate throughout the entire powder charge and it forms a smelly sticky tar-like substance with a high nitric acid content that is extremely corrosive to steel.

You can also go with a fast pistol or shot shell propellant like Red Dot in all of those cartridges, but with limited powder charges used for very heavy projectiles your velocity may be lower than if you use the slow .50 BMG and 20mm canon powders.

I personally use IMR7383 for almost all of my milsurp rifle cartridges, but it is limited in usefulness for cast boolits and is not a universal propellant at all for cast applications. It must be used with great caution when working up loads because it is a triple base high-energy powder with an extremely unusual pressure curve that can't be compared to double and single base propellants. Accordingly, experience with standard propellants is of little use in "reading" IMR7383 performance and high pressure develops without giving recognizable warning signs. It is treacherous because when it starts to burn clean you are already into the danger zone with a lot of cartridges. Fortunately there is tested data available for a few loads for .30-06, .308 Win, and .223 Rem.

Some of the others with more experience with the faster surplus powders can give you some recommends on what will work well for you and they should be weighing in here soon with their 2¢.

Have fun!

[Buckshot]

.............You can leave the 12 ga off the list . Best powder for those rifle cartridges you mentioned would be (IMO) for moderate cast loads SR4759. Next best single most useable powder would be 4895. Other good ones as alternate choices would be WC846, WC844, WC852 (slow) if they have it.

All of the above powders I consider benign. Meaning they're predictable in their charge increases giveing fairly consistant increases in velocity and pressure. They're not going to suddenly jump up and bite you.

The really slow ones WC860, 872, 5010 can do some really outstanding work, but they require a bit of understanding. You have to understand that they can be very accurate, but at the same time can be a bit of a PITA due to sometimes less then clean burning, as Linstrum mentioned.

I really like WC872 for cast in the 6.5 Swede, but you have to be mindfull of extracting the case as there will be unburned powder and you dont' want to dump it in the chamber or subsequent chambering will be tough. But, due to the accuracy and the price, I can live with that. WC872 will do double duty however as a VERY FINE powder in that cartridge with full power jacketed loads.

Pretty much ditto the above with the 7x57 Mauser. A 42.0gr charge propells a 172gr cast slug off at 1775 fps, and burns clean(er). Very accurate. And again, a full case propells a 175gr jacketed slug to 2450 fps and is clean.

It's a matter of pressure = efficiency and as the bore grows larger, there is less pressure being built for efficient burning. Of these standard volumn type full power cartridges the 8x57 is verging on full caseloads becoming inefficient. In the 8x57 a full caseload behind a common weight jacketed slug will lack a couple hundred FPS of full potential, although it burns clean.

In the 35 Whelen a full case burns clean behind a heavy slug like the 358009. Go to a lighter slug and you get incomplete burning.

In straight wall cases they're pretty much a waste of time.

.............Buckshot

[The Nyack Kid]

the best powders for big straitwalled cartridges are the same powders commonly used for the 223 . they are the fast rifle powders .

[Harpman]

thanks guys, out of these...IMR5010/WC860/WC870/WC872 , which is best ? or do they all pretty much act the same ? in my calibers. Be all cast bullets. may need some help on starting loads too when I get back with it. which ever I end up getting

[Linstrum]

Hi, Harpman, they are all about the same for cast boolit purposes. The differences show up big time when loaded in .50 BMG and 20mm Vulcan.

The powders in the IMR5010/WC860/WC870/WC872 group all have fairly equal burning speeds in milsurp and similar size rifle cartridges. There is some noticeable variation when used for "full house" loads when you get into the large case capacity small bore magnum rifle cartridges like the .264 Winmag, 7mm Rem, .300 Winmag, etc., the IMR5010 being the fastest burning. Some users have found that in their particular lots of these powders that WC872 burns a bit faster than WC860 even though the opposite is the way it is supposed to be. IMR5010 and WC860 are from .50 Browning Machine Gun ammunition and the WC870 and WC872 are from 20mm Vulcan cannon cartridges. The burn rate for .50 BMG is supposed to be a bit faster than for 20mm Vulcan but those powders are all right next to each other on the burn rate charts. For cast boolit purposes they can be considered equal since the variation from one manufacturing lot to the next is actually greater than their theoretical design differences.

To make my cast boolit milsurp loads totally clean burning using these slow powders, I use a booster of no more than 3 or 4-grains of IMR4227, IMR3031, IMR4895, or other similar fast single-base rifle powder over the flash hole and then put in a slightly compressed load of the cannon powder over it. The compressed load MUST be used to keep the booster positioned over the flash hole and prevent it from migrating into the main charge from jiggling and vibration during handling and recoil. I have never used a double base powder as a booster and don't recommend it without first doing some experiments. I have used single base powders as boosters for around six years and the loads have proven to be stable in storage over that amount of time.

When NOT using a booster, of the particular manufacturing lots of IMR5010, WC860, WC870, and WC872 that I bought a few years back, the WC872 pull-down (powder removed from surplus cartridges) is the cleanest burning of the bunch and the IMR5010 is a real dirty bird by comparison. I shoot .50 caliber and even in its designed application the particular lot of IMR5010 I have burns a bit dirty while the WC860, WC870, and WC872 burn so clean you don't even know the gun has been fired.

[Harpman]

Thanks alot !.......I will get the 872

[StarMetal]

Harpman,

You'd be best off to split the purchase with 4895 and 872. Don't limit yourself to one slow powder.

Joe

[swheeler]

Harpman: You specify for plinking loads, I think I would go with 4759 if available from Pat's, if not I" think" Maven would be a good fellow to ask about WC820, economical and clean. Lot speed variations can be VERY large in all surplus powders, I have WC 872 that burns clean in 7 mag, and another lot of it that is extremely dirty in same gun. Here are some loads tested with different lots of 872 and 5010, the jugs of 860 were all the same lot number.

30/06-fc215 primer-200 gr lee

WC860-55.0grs-2009 fps(hi-tech)
WC872-55.0grs-1655 fps(Pats)
WC872-55.0grs-1854 fps(Bartlett)
I 5010-50.0 grs-1770 fps(hi-tech)
I 5010-50.0 grs-1633 fps(Pats)
Scooter

[Harpman]

Good ideas, thanks guys

[mdatlanta]

.............

I really like WC872 for cast in the 6.5 Swede, but you have to be mindfull of extracting the case as there will be unburned powder and you dont' want to dump it in the chamber or subsequent chambering will be tough. But, due to the accuracy and the price, I can live with that. WC872 will do double duty however as a VERY FINE powder in that cartridge with full power jacketed loads.
.............Buckshot

Buckshot,

Can you share some jacketed load data/results for WC-872 in the Swede? I'm loading for targets using 140gr and deer using 120gr/129gr bullets in modern rifles.

Also, will this stuff work in the .270 WCF using 150gr bullets? (I just acquired a bunch of those bullets at a price too good to tun down)

Thanks!

Mike

[swheeler]

Mike; heres what I have from M 96 swede
140 Rem C/L (seated to first cann-3.175oal)
FC215 primer
RP brass
WC872-54.0 to57.0 grs-2432-2576 fps(lot 49617)
WC872-54.0 grs-2211(lot 48772)

Rem M 700 270w
150 Speer sp(3.340 OAL)
FC215 primer
RP brass
WC872-65.0 grs-2414 fps(lot 48772)es22
WC872-65.0 grs-2607 fps(lot 49617)es14fps oneholer(what I like to call a starmetal group)
in the 6.5 all extreme spreads were 10fps or below, as you can see lot to lot variations can be quite large, maybe JB can supply lot 49617 still. Hope this helps.
Scooter

[Junior1942]

>IMR5010/WC860/WC870/WC872 don't develop enough pressure in most shot shell applications for burning to propagate throughout the entire powder charge and it forms a smelly sticky tar-like substance with a high nitric acid content that is extremely corrosive to steel.

Say what? The jug of WC860 I just bought will leave ACID in my bore?????

[waksupi]

Junior, that just means shoot it in rifles. A shotgun won't develop near enough pressure for ot to burn cleanly.