The Art of Paper Patching w/photo!

[RMulhern]

I don't claim to be one of the individuals most knowledgeable about the art of paper patching bullets but before I started this endeavor I sought the knowledge of several individuals that have been shooting PP bullets for a long time; some of those individuals many years so I didn't exactly start 'cold turkey' on this project. I've read here that some posters are using PP with jacketed bullets; that's OK...whatever blows your skirt up is fine with me! Personally....when I think of PP bullets I've got a BPCR situation in my mind for this is the cartridge that made the West safe for Winchester; used on the High Plains of Texas by the buffalo hunters whom not only used the PP cartridge to gather hides and meat but as a by product of their endeavor to hack out a living in new territory that required enduring many hardships along the way.

In my opinion PP bullets work best using BLACK POWDER because the ignition properties are entirely different from that of smokeless powder. The way BLACK POWDER ignites is such that obduration of the PP bullet causes it to expand outward against the internal dimensions of the rifles bore thus helping to seal off any gas which would then otherwise possibly escape around the outside edges of the bullet thereby causing a problem known as 'gas cutting' of the bullet which will destroy the structural integrity of the bullet travelling down the bore.

Recently at the 5 @ 200 yd. event my friend Kenny Wasserberger set a new record for 5 shots shooting a 5 shot group that measured only 1.366" using his scope mounted Shiloh Sharps .45x110 rifle! According to Kenny before going to Raton to enter this event his rifle had delivered several 5 shot groups in his testing that equaled 1 MOA at 200 yards and I'm quite certain that this gave Kenny great confidence in his ability to do well at Raton. Mind you...Kenny didn't reach this degree of accuracy without much hard work and experimentation. It occurred because of meticulous record keeping and trial and error. Without a doubt...PP cartridges are highly accurate coming from a rifle in the hands of a highly qualified shooter!

PP bullets in my opinion will perform best from a rifle with a tight chamber; in the case of the .45 a chamber neck that is somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.474" or....from the use of a cartridge case that has thick walls. The Everlasting case made up in Cody, Wyoming by the owner of Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company is an instance of what I'm speaking of here for I have a friend that had a few of these cases made that have a wall thickness of 0.016". Why the thick walls? Because with a wall thickness of this amount....the exterior wall of the cartridge case matches the interior wall of the chamber the cases are being used in and the case mouth matches that of the OD of the bullet thereby preventing the PP bullet being fired from first expanding outward and then as the bullet enters the bore.....from being squeezed down again which will hamper the potential of the bullets accuracy! It just so happens that my friends chamber requires a wall thickness of 0.016" to mate a case to his chamber; yours may require a different dimension or thickness of wall. What will also destroy accuracy of a PP bullet is having cases that are TOO SHORT which also will cause the base of the bullet to expand before entering the bore of the rifle!

In closing...I will attempt to attach a photo of a round I have loaded for my Shiloh Sharps 1874 rifle along with a wrapped 550 gr. bullet from a Steve Brooks custom mould along with a naked bullet that I cast. The bore of my rifle is 0.450" and I wrap my bullets using a paper in thickness of 0.002" to 0.003" up to a dimension of approximately 0.451" and an alloy of 16-1 lead to tin. This combination works well for me in my rifle. On occasion I will have to use a 'pusher tool' to get a cartridge to seat into the chamber. I have these bullets seated a little deeper into the case than normal as generally I will only have the base of the bullet seated down into the case somewhere around 0.130" to 0.140"!

Best of luck to all whom want to shoot PP bullets!

[montana_charlie]

Mr. III,
I would like to ask a question.

While totally disregarding all factors that have to do with how a bullet, a patch, or the two in combination fit within the freebore and leade of a rifle...
While only considering how far a patched bullets can (or should) be seated into a cartridge case...

Is there a specific reason that paper patched bullets should not be seated as deeply in a case mouth as a GG bullet might be?

CM

[RMulhern]

montana charlie

Recenting testing (by others and myself included) has shown that if the PP bullet is seated into the case with say....only 1/8" that this is inclined to deliver the best accuracy for competition work out to 1000 yards or so because if seated out in this manner.....this procedure is akin to 'breech-seating' and there is less chance for deformation of the bullet...either from possibly a case that is too short....or a chamber whereby the case is not a tight fit into the chamber.

However....in the case of a PP bullet loaded for hunting purposes....in my own mind I can't see whereby loading the bullet deeper into the case would make that much difference! I have shot some good groups with the bullets seated as deep as my photo shows and they delivered great accuracy at 200 yards.....but there's a lot of difference in 200 yards and 1000 yards!!

Hope I answered your question!

[montana_charlie]

PP bullet is seated into the case with say....only 1/8" that this is inclined to deliver the best accuracy for competition work out to 1000 yards or so...

However....in the case of a PP bullet loaded for hunting purposes....in my own mind I can't see whereby loading the bullet deeper into the case would make that much difference!

Hope I answered your question!

Perhaps you did.

In the first statement...about 1000 yard accuracy...you must admit that 'bullet fit' within the chamber is a critical factor.
I wanted to stay out of that realm of inquiry, and just concentrate on the mechanical relationship between a cartridge case and a deeply seated bullet.

As an example:

In this picture (from a poster showing Sharps factory loaded paper patch cartridges) I have picked out two pairs of images.

One pair shows the .44 caliber 2-5/8 bottlenecked case. Both hold the same 500 grain bullet, but it sits on top of different powder columns. It appears that Sharps would go with shallow or deep seating...as the powder column dictated.

In the other pair of cartridges, the same kind of relationship exists on a pair of .45 caliber 2.4-inch cases. Again bullet seating depth was determined by how much space the powder took up in the case...and apparently nothing else.

The reason for my original question:

Somewhere along the way, I picked up the notion that if a PP bullet is seated deeply in the case, there is a risk of the case mouth being pulled along with the bullet as it exits the case.

I think I remember hearing about brass being torn from the case and found lodged in the throat.

Meanwhile, I keep seeing pictures of old cartridges loaded with only a small band of paper showing above the case mouth.
I makes me wonder...

CM

[powderburnerr]

charlie

, the brass being torn is from too aggressive a crimp on the case in oversized chambers ,if the thick walled brass is used and the bullets fit snug you will not encounter this problem ,, if
you use regular thin cases and put a real heavy taper crimp on a deep seated bullet you can probably tear a case... especially if it isnt spotless inside the neck...Dean

[RMulhern]

Charlie

Personally....I think the times when case seperation occurs are caused by a few things sometimes overlooked in the 'running of the rifle' and not to closely examing fired cases BEFORE reloading and to a couple of things maybe NOT DONE when actual shooting is going on (loading behind that little paper ring which can cause a binding problem) and also doing the reloading phase! As to the actual shooting and examination of things while in the process of firing....and in the process of using a BT....sometimes moisture will be left in the chamber and that in itself is a bad thing since water is noncompressable and will cause a hydraulic effect! All the more reason to maybe employ a good chamber wiping tool! In regards to a problem during the reloading phase that could be overlooked....it's just good commonsense IMO to make certain that the case is absolutely clean as a hounds tooth; I never reload any cases unless they have been put through the ceramic media cleaning process and then I have a tool I use to run down into the cases which is another method to make certain the case interior is clean which is a slightly worn .45 caliber bronze brush affixed to my electric drill! I think possibly the other culprit of case seperation is a case that is TOO LONG such that the mouth of the case gets blown into the bore a slight distance causing high pressure and THAT may be the most damaging culprit of all! All the more reason to examine your cases closely and to trim accordingly to prevent same from happening! It doesn't take 20/10 vision to see that the end of the case is curled over which is an indication of this problem. I employ a process that I'm quite certain isn't unique in that I'm certain others may have done this also which is I use a 'shoe dauber' akin to what we used years ago to apply polish to our shoes and I dip it down into some powdered graphite and I run the dauber down into the case....invert it and tap on my reloading bench to make certain there's no large amount left inside the case before I measure by weight my powder charges. I know this process can't hurt anything and I even notice that it takes less pressure on the compression tool! To date after many thousands of rounds of cartridges fired I have experienced no case seperations! That's not to say....it won't happen!

HOLD HARD & STAY CENTER!

[montana_charlie]

So, the consensus (between two experienced shooters) is that deeply seated paper patched bullets should be fully functional...and not prone to any mechanical difficulties that would cause operational problems.
It is encouraging to hear that while considering the many other 'guesses' needed when selecting a bullet size and paper type to try first.

If it is truly the crimp on a case mouth that can cause brass to be pulled into the throat, I have an idea for a remedy.

The diameter of a crimped mouth may be reduced enough to be able to 'look past' the step at the end of the chamber recess. That would make it easy for it to move forward...if something was trying to make it do so.

If the mouth were at full diameter, it's forward movement would be blocked by that step, and that might prevent the occurrence at issue. If a crimp is needed to hold the patched bullet in place, but you want a full-diameter case mouth...placing a crimp further back along the neck might be an answer.

Lee's Factory Crimp Die is proportioned to crimp the mouth of 45/70 cases.
If it was used, without modification, on a 45/90 case, the crimp would be applied .300" back from the mouth. It can be adjusted in the press to apply a very light crimp.

Assuming a bullet seated (say) .500" deep, the crimp would be gently holding onto the bullet in the lower half of it's inserted length until ignition pressure released that hold...but the chamber step would 'discourage' the uncrimped case mouth from moving forward.

Thoughts...?

CM

[leftiye]

I'd guestimate that an uncrimped, finger tight boolit, in an unsized case (paper patched or not) would be best. I do this in all of my sniggle snots. Not real good for feeding from a magazine though. I agree with CM that the case mouth should not be allowed into the leade, and if a crimp allows this it may contribute to pulling the case mouth , maybe even separating it. Crimps are problematical with paper patched, as can be case neck tension.

[RMulhern]

Unsized cases and PP bullets do not sit well with me; just one of my little 'idiosyncrasies' I guess playing within my mind! Currently I cast a bullet from a Steve Brooks mould that throws a diameter of .441" at a ratio of 20-1 lead/tin and I try to 'patch up' to a diameter of .451" and if I don't size the cases down somewhat....the patched bullet flops around inside an unsized neck akin to a broke-necked chicken!! I don't like that! I know all about those that say..."What difference does it make? The bullet will go up into the bore if seated out a good length and align itself within the bore!" I've tried this procedure and on several occasions when firing was stopped due to something maybe taking place downrange...I've extracted the case...and the bullet was left within the bore and I don't like having to resort to a cleaning rod to remove a stuck bullet! And..if I wish to stick my PP rounds in a belt...I don't want the bullet falling out somewhere along the way. My rifles chamber is such that the throat area is right at .480" diameter and figuring into usage Norma or Starline brass....and to maintain a target diameter of .450" - .451" on the finished PP bullet without resizing the cases down somewhat...there is just too much 'slop' for my own liking! Therefore...I do not run my cases all the way up into the resize die....only enough to reduce the diameter and ID of the case to a degree where the patched bullet will just barely slip down inside the mouth of the case and then....I put a very slight crimp using a crimping die on the case such that the bullet can be rotated by hand...but it won't fall out of the case when inverted or bumped!

As for application of a crimp further down on the case...down in the area of the bearing surface of the bullet...that might work like a charm however one must keep in mind that the least amount of bullet deformation that can be had...the greater the chance of having a bullet that will be more accurate! With the previous sentence I do not mean that if the crimp were lower down on the case that more bullet deformation would occur; it's just that there is a possibility that more deformation would take place and having crimped cases for my .45/110 and then getting excellent accuracy...I'm more inclined to stay with the standard procedure of crimping at the top of the case!!

Touching on 'deep-seated' PP bullets one more time...I might also add that once 'pon a time I had trouble finding some paper that was of the right thickness and my patched rounds came out to a diameter of around .455" making for a very difficult chambering experience and after talking with 'Powderburner' aka Dean...that's got a helluva lot more experience with PP than I do....he advised me to just seat the bullets deeper into the case such that the leading edge of the paper was just touching the lands and shoot them and following his advice....those PP rounds shot 10 rounds into a group from 200 yards that measured 1.8" vertical x 1.6" horizontal!! Pretty fair for an ole country boy using the advice of another with more experience!!

[powderburnerr]

charlie,
There is a little difference here , the bullet FPM is talkin about is larger in diamater and as such takes up more space in the case , were you to use a under bore size bullet and do that , if your chamber was on the large size you might chance tearing a case because there is a lot more room for the bullet to upset before it leaves the case , and a lot of case to grab.this is where sanitary case necks come into play as well.as proper case length.....Dean

[montana_charlie]

charlie,
There is a little difference here , the bullet FPM is talkin about is larger in diamater and as such takes up more space in the case ,

FPM says his bullet is .441", and that it is patched up to .451".

You say that is 'larger in diameter' but I'm wondering 'larger than what'...larger than the 'finger tight' bullet mentioned by leftiye?

I haven't mentioned any bullet size (so far) although I was leaning toward one that casts at .446". That would be my choice for a 'small' bullet.

But, I am also considering a diameter that would be patched up closer to .458".
That would be a bullet on the order of .448" (or larger).
Such a diameter could never seat out as far as FPM seats his...which is why I am exploring the thinking on 'deeper seating' and any inherent problems associated with that practice.

So, your cautionary advice...

were you to use a under bore size bullet and do that , if your chamber was on the large size you might chance tearing a case because there is a lot more room for the bullet to upset before it leaves the case

...is actually quite the opposite from what I am considering.

My chamber recess, at the mouth, is .480 - .482 and it feeds into a .460 freebore which is .10" long. Groove diameter starts at .4595 and tapers to .458 at the muzzle.
I am trying to imagine a configuration where the bullet has (essentially) no room at all to upset before leaving the case as it passes from the .460 ID of the case mouth and right through the .460 freebore...almost like a straight tube.

And...You can bet my cases match chamber depth, cuz (as some already know) I stretch 'em to make 'em fit.

I would really like your thoughts on this bullet diameter choice...before I manage to convince myself that it's a good idea.

As for the question about where to place a crimp...FPM likes to crimp the case mouth. But, as shallowly as he seats a bullet, there is no other choice for him, anyway.

CM

[powderburnerr]

if you are going to shoot them in 458-9 then you can probably seat them as deep as needed , as the case is tight to the chamber and the bullet tight in the case , this is what we try for using the tight chambers and the thick walled braass , and if you read FPMs last paragraph he is using a differennt diamater wrapped bullet , under bore size is normally 446-448.................... the closer the bullet, case, chamber, tolerance is the better it works and the less crimp one needs ,, my new cases will be a tight slip fit for the bullet when fireformed in my chamber ,,, the case walls will be 16.5 thousands thick.. .Dean

[leftiye]

CM, Lots of folks use boolits of bore diameter(say .450-.451"), and patch and size to groove diameter. It is the formula for use with smokeless powder.

Them smaller boolits(.441") must be used with black powder or else the undersized boolits will cause flame cutting of the patch and boolits, loss of accuracy, and leading (when fired with smokeless powder and therefore with little or no bumping up). Patching to bore diameter with these small boolits is usually used in muzzleloaders, but would allow seating into the barrel on top of the lands from the breech which sounds like what FMPIII is describing. Again, this is non-functional if smokeless powder is being used, as there is little or no "bumping up."

My own preference would be to use a bore diameter plus .001" boolit patched up to in the vicinity of groove diameter, then lubricated and sized to groove diameter, and fired with smokeless powder in a chamber specially cut with a long freebore of groove diameter plus .001 or .002" to hold the boolit concentric to the bore prior to firing (with boolit seated out to touch the leade). This is also a solution to the H&R and other 45-70 barrels with no leade, and no freebore.

I would imagine that FMPIII and I are actually describing the same thing in "finger tight seating", as a modified partial sizing, or use of a larger sizing die would definitely be necessary to avoid projectiles being too loose with some cases fired in oversized chambers. Also I have heard it suggested that some of the flaring be left at the case mouth to center the case mouth in the neck area of the chamber.

[montana_charlie]

CM, Lots of folks use boolits of bore diameter(say .450-.451"), and patch and size to groove diameter. It is the formula for use with smokeless powder.

Yeah...I heard that recently. It made me mad cuz I want to do that while shooting black powder.

Them smaller boolits(.441") must be used with black powder or else the undersized boolits will cause flame cutting of the patch and boolits, loss of accuracy, and leading (when fired with smokeless powder and therefore with little or no bumping up).

Even though there will be precious little room for any bumping up in the combination I am thinking of...is there any reason I can't expect this to work well with black powder?

Being forced to use smokeless is a form of abuse I just couldn't hope to survive. Oh, woe is me...I may have to just keep packing grease into grooves.

CM

[powderburnerr]

Charlie
as long as you get the patch started into the throat and it doesnt roll off it will work, what ever size you want to use.most, of the big bullet I have seen or have, have a tapered section or a long ogive if the paper is wrapped over that so it can start you are ok.. thats the nice part about pp you can do almost anything you want within reason and it will work, you just have to work with what you want.......Dean

[RMulhern]

Frankly...I tend to stay with WHAT WORKS and proof that patching to BORE DIAMETER WORKS...is in the photo below! It's the group that KW shot at Raton recently in the 5@200 yard event and where I'm shooting a bullet of .441" diameter patched up to .450" to .451"....KW was shooting a .446" diameter bullet patched up to .451"! Bore diameter on a .45x110 is .450"...groove diameter is .458" so KW IS NOT patching up to anywhere near groove diameter! The only reason I'm using a .441" bullet is because I don't have a .446" diameter mould....YET!! This group measured 1.366" by the way...so I think KW method is working for him!

As an aside issue....those that want to play with SP....fine with me but I dare say that when using a straight walled case like the .45x110 or even a shorter one.....accuracy like this shown in the photo won't ever be obtained with anything but BLACK POWDER! That's the recipe they were designed for over 130 years ago....and that still goes for today...as KW has shown!!

[Jon K]

Charlie,

So.......Why don't you want to patch to bore diameter?

Get some to try both... bore...or groove diameter. Then make up your mind which mould to buy.

I have put PP on the back burner for now, but I am patching to bore size, shooting BP, and it works.

Patch to bore or patch to groove, that's like debating Chevy or Ford. Just pick which flavor you like best and go for it.

Jon

[45 2.1]

As an aside issue....those that want to play with SP....fine with me but I dare say that when using a straight walled case like the .45x110 or even a shorter one.....accuracy like this shown in the photo won't ever be obtained with anything but BLACK POWDER! That's the recipe they were designed for over 130 years ago....and that still goes for today...as KW has shown!!

Ho Hum......Yeah right........... I shoot smokeless with grooved and paper patched. You BP people have got to go a bit to equal what I normally get. Last smokeless group was 3/4" for 5 shots at 257 measured yards (that is under 0.30 MOA). Anything you can do with BP, I can do with smokeless(and that includes extremely low single digit velocity spreads also) except make smoke and cases filthy. It just takes the time to learn how to do it, just like it took the time to learn to shoot BP.

[BrentD]

actually, you cannot shoot a black powder match of any type. Which is one good reason to not use smokeless. And it just ain't as much fun, at least not for me.

I'm sure those 0.3 moa groups are a dime a dozen for you, but you may as well shoot copper and bolt actions for all the good they will do you when the name of the game is bpcr.

Brent

[45 2.1]

actually, you cannot shoot a black powder match of any type. not quite true, for registered competion yes, but several matches that are conducted by clubs do allow smokeless such as the Quigley.Which is one good reason to not use smokeless. And it just ain't as much fun, at least not for me. I've always thought they were afraid of being beat myself. If BP is so good in these, why don't they allow smokeless? The fun is in the competition.

I'm sure those 0.3 moa groups are a dime a dozen for you, but you may as well shoot copper and bolt actions for all the good they will do you when the name of the game is bpcr. A game for black powder cartridge rifles only and somewhat limited in not allowing the full diversity of original action types in it either. Other games are limited like that also.

Brent

The driving force behind learning to get that accuracy, not withstanding your putdown, was a statement H.M. Pope made that the 45-70 won't shoot. He was wrong on that particular item. I really don't care to compete useing blackpowder as there are too many braggarts and boasters in the sport. Now was there all gentlemen shooting (and not someone stateing what you just did), I would likely join in the fun. Too bad Black Princes group of fellows is a little too far away.