11.7 Danish

[Junior1942]

A buddy inherited an 11.7 Danish rolling block with zero extras. Is there a way to reload it?

[13Echo]

There are apparently several versions of the 11.7 Danish cartridge. "The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions" lists the 11.7x41.5R (make from .375 flanged), 11.7X45.5R(make from 45-70), 11.7X51.6R (make from 43 Spanish), and the 11.7X51R (make from .375 Flanged). A chamber cast would tell the tale. You should also check with Buffalo Arms as they have brass for just about anything you can imagine.

Jerry Liles

[Kraschenbirn]

A buddy has one of these in the 11.7x51R and I've made brass for it from .45-70s...simply shorten .090 and use .45-70 dies with a very light taper crimp. He's been shooting the Lee 459-405-HB over 50 gr (volume equivalent) of Pyrodex RS with fair-to-middlin' results. I've also loaded some as-cast Lyman 457124s over moderate charges of IMR4198 and AA5744 for him but, so far as I know, he hasn't tried those yet.

He's the one that prefers Pyrodex; I want to load FFg BP under that same boolit...which I also use in my Trapdoor carbine...but can't convince him. Actually, my "original" carbine loads (55 gr FFg/405 gr FP) will chamber in his rolling block...worn throat, maybe?...but haven't tried shooting any of those either.

Bill

[curator]

The 11.7X51R is easy to reload for. Brass is available from Buffaloarms. Be sure to make a chamber cast as many of these rifles are really 11.7X58R and the slightly longer brass is better for accuracy then the shorter version. These rifles are very accurate when fed the correct bullets. Most have bore sizes of .462-.464, so .458 bullets won't shoot very well.

The Lee .459-405HB bullet drops from my mould at .463 when cast of 1 in 30 tin/lead alloy, and is very accurate. Another "quirk" with these rifles is a slower twist than our .45-70 trapdoors. My rifle appears to have a 1 turn in 24" twist and shoots the 405 to 425 grain bullets best. Longer bullets show signs of tipping at 100 yards.

You can make brass from trimmed (2.0") .45-70 cases but they will swell considerably and may split since the Danish case is about .02 larger near the head. My best load is the aforementioned Lee slug and 23 grains of SR4759. Occasionally I load them with 65 grains of Goex FFg. Both are quite accurate but the black powder load kicks significantly more even though velocities are similar.

[twidget]

I have an old rolling block carbine in 11.7x41.5R Danish. Cases were made from .45-70 cut down to 1.69" and the diameter of the rims reduced by about .010". The load is a Lee 459-405-HB over 45 grains of FFg. For dies I'm using a Lee set for the .45-70. The sizer die works OK without modification. The expander die needs a spacer to keep the floating expander all the way down. I had to grind down the bottom of the seater die to get the stem far enough down and to crimp. So far I haven't lost a case to splits after about six reloads.

Custom dies and the correct cases are available, but both cost a lot. I could easily have more tied up in the loading equipment than I do in the rifle. For the small amount of shooting I do with this one the improvised stuff works fine.

[kodiak1]

Have an 11.7 X 51R and it is a great shooter had to get a lee hollow base mould and that really smartened it up.

Ken.

[Paul Tummers]

I do slowly collect things to reload for my 12,7x44R Swedish rolling block, ordered some .50 Alaskan cases and shortened them at 44,5 mm which is the exact chamberlength minus 0,3 mm
I casted some bullets in my Lee .50 R.E.A.L mould, they are to small in diameter to provide a decent grip, even after having sized the cases with a 50-70 FL Sizerdie, and the case-rim seems to be too small in diameter because the the extractor, which has no exessive sidewards play, slips over the rim instead of proper extracting the unfired cases,
Any suggestions about how to cure this?
Regards,
Paul T.

[mag44uk]

348 Winchester brass seems to be better for the 12.7 x 44. I think the Alaskan brass is a bit undersize on rim diameter which may account for your extraction problem. I found converting the 348 Winny brass to be a PITA! Its easy to split the mouths. I made up several expander plugs to fit my Lyman 50-70 die set.
Regards,
Tony

[JoeBrotch]

I just picked one up and am using 45-70 brass, I made an FL internal case expander to size neck and body to .464 for 1"and pre-expand base to .415 diameter .150 from back of rim (breechface) forward .500".

Expanded cases were WW and wall thickness seems very consistant as swelling is even around circumferance of base.

I read somewhere where a lot of these were reamed out with a 45-70 reamer by importers.

I will be using the .462/3 405 hollow base Lee bullet/mold for my .464 bore.

[Refraktorius]

I own and shoot a Danish RB (Being a Dane by birth, I guess I'm supposed to love it. It was bought by my grandfather, given as a present to my father, and now passed to me... in mint condition).

It is produced in Denmark (At the Danish National Armory, called "Tojhuset" on license from Remington)

Test pressures for original Remingtons were 1600 bars, for the Danish 1800 bars and for the Swedish "somewhat higher still".
The swedes rebarreled their RB's to "8x58 rimmed Danish" and tested/changed parts to more modern steel (But used a light load anyway)

I shoot a 405gr pure lead (Lee hollow base) on top of a 3mm cork disk, 30 gr of Vihtavuori n133 and a magnum primer.

I'm using .45-70 brass reduced to 51mm length and turned down rim.
Works like a charm.




A little history

The (armed forces) Danish Remingtons were originally chambered for a rimfire cartridge, 45,5 mm long (for the carbine 40,5mm)

The rifle associations also bought RB, but chose centerfire. 11.7x45R Danish.

The armed forces then updated their RB's changing the block to accept both rimfire and centerfire cartridges, and rechambered to a 11.7x51 cartridge. This allowed for a larger charge, and made it impossible for military personel to steal ammo and sell it to the rifle associations

In '97 the ammunition changed to FMJ projectiles.

The rifles stayed in the inventories for quite some time, most of them being sold after WWII.
You may also encounteer a 41,5mm cartridge vith a relatively light projectile. These were made from cut down "8x58 rimmed Danish" brass and sold with RB's to Greenland. They were cheap to make and would fit any chamber.

The 11,7x51DR chamber is conical, and even a .45-70 reamed chamber will thus produce swelled brass in time. But it's a nice old rifle, and there is little idea in using "pulling the dragons tail"-loads in it anyway.
Using a full power load in either 11,7xanythingRD or a .45-70 reamed could be the last thing the unfortunate shooter did.


Slugging will be a very good idea, as the calibres are known to vary from 11,25 to 11,75mm, with the nominal calibre being 11,7mm.

(And even among Danes there is a bit of controversy regarding calibers and chambering... I'll have to dig up my old books with the original data)




That was a rather lengthy first post, I hope being metric, does not lead to flaming

[Freightman]

Welcome to the board, and thanks for the info on the Danish RB, Refraktorius. I have one that I love it is in mint condition and I only shoot trapdoor loads in it doesn't need more, also I don't need the bruising from heavy loads with a steel but plate.
We try not to flame anyone here that is why I hang out here got tired of all the bickering on some of the other boards.
A big HOWDY

[missionary5155]

WELCOMe ! THANK YOU for all the infomation. I was looking at a Danish RB chambered for 11.7x 42R... probably is the 11.7x41.5R. Your POST helped very much understanding what that caliber is and how to get one shooting !
THANK YOU !

[Refraktorius]

Thank you for the welcomes!



I must say, that if I was not so cheap (people from my part of Denmark have the economical minds of Scotsmen) I would buy 11,7X51 DR brass and dies. When I’ve worn out my first batch of 150 reformed .45-70 cases, I’ll consider it seriously (might be a loooong time before that happens!)

Presently I use Lee .45-70 dies that have been shortened by 3 mm.
The "resizing die" remained untouched, but the "Powder Through Expander Die" and "Seat and Feed Die" are too long to properly flare the brass and crimp the bullet, and need to be cut a bit shorter.

To cut the cases to lengtht, I use a case trimmer with shortened pin on the case length gauge.

The cutter is mounted in a fixed electric drill, and the shellholder held in a “bit-screwdriver”. IMHO this gives better control when trimming off as much brass as here.

I “turn down” the rim by sticking a conical wood dowel in the drill, then simply pressing the case onto the dowel and hold a file against the rotating rim, regularly checking with a calliper. Works great for small batches.

As the shell holder is dimensioned for several different rims, it will not hold the modified rims for serious trimming (but is OK for normal day-to-day trims), so it’s very important to first trim to length, then trim the rim (learned the hard way….. Pain is the mother of learning)

For the same reason, I use a RCBS #14 shell holder that gives a much better grip than the one supplied with the Lee dies when reloading. It’s made to specifically fit a .45-70, not an entire group of cases.
The Lee holder tends to loose the grip, marring the rims and being a PitA to work with.

[Sheridan64]

Old thread I know, but thanks for this info. (why I joined this forum)

Dad picked up one years ago. Gold(ish) plated finish. God only knows but maybe a parade / palace kind of rifle. Pristine bore.

I'm all up into 45-70s so making a fix to get it smoking is doable.

Best forum there is.

[john.k]

It was said some of the US importers ran a 45/70 reamer into the chamber,to make the guns more saleable.