22 Lovell variations

[brian1]

A DRO is a huge aid in this, once I got it set up (mainly using an original 25-20SS case as the guide). You can probably get it close with judicious wheel reading.
There is no need for annealing until you start forming the neck.
The forces involved are not all that great - until you get to the last 1/4 or 1/8 inch, it doesn't even register on my force dial.
As far as making it, I saw no difference in what brass I used. Mostly I used new Privi Partizan .223. I also tried it with some old Lake City 5.56mm and it formed up same as the rest. I haven't yet shot it, though. In fact, the one case you see me forming in the press is a used LC.
Yes, I use Imperial Sizing Wax for this and everything reloading.
It is slow and tedious work. I've been working on this bag of 50 for months (intermittently). Lately, I've been on a big push to get it done so I can free up my lathe for other work.
I did find that pressing to a line worked better than trying to press to a particular pressure. To establish the line, I just pressed a bit more at a time until I liked what I had, then I just marked the piston where it was flush with the top of the die.

[brian1]

My original pressing punch has a shoulder that stops it on the mouth of the 7mm die. Hence controlling the pressure is not an issue so long as it's enough. I used to run my press's gage up to about 4000 psi.
.

I was originally going to use the shoulder idea, but I didn't know exactly where to make it, so I went ahead and made the punch without one, then experimented with working my way toward where I wanted the end result to be. I probably should weld a stop washer onto my punch now, to make the pressing part a bit quicker than trying to eyeball that fine stop line.

[brian1]

In the lathe: Make the driver of steel, not aluminum. Make a steel rod about 2" long and the diameter of the case mouth, with a tiny tit on the front end to center it in the flash hole, and a 60 degree center on the other end. (Center in the photo below) With this you can put some pressure on with the live center to keep the case from slipping on the driver. Now you can take the whole final diameter in one cut. I just left the cross slide at .315", moved the carriage out in Z about a half inch while setting a new piece, then light feed to the end-point in Z. A SHARP carbide tool with about 2 degrees of back rake works best. Miked each case before taking it out of the lathe, and gave it a lick with a safe-edged lathe file if it wasn't down to size. (Safe edge to avoid taking any metal off the rim, which is already too thin.)

I should probably try this on the next batch. Part of the tedium is taking the donut down in lots of 2-3 thousandths fine cuts.

[uscra112]

Good plan. It's tedious enough without having to squint to see a line.

[marlinman93]

Yesterday a old friend gave me a bunch of very old sealed boxes of bullets. A couple were of really special interest to me as they are made by Sisk, and are both .22 caliber. One marked "Niedner" in large letters, and the other marked "Lovell"! I would guess they're based on some design that Niedner and Lovell came up with for Sisk? I'm curious what they look like, but not planning on breaking the seals to look at them!

[uscra112]

I have the idea that Sisk did the designing. He had at least half a dozen weights for the Lovell alone. I have several unsealed boxes, meaning to try them against our modern factory bullets, but never have.

Then there were at least one or two weights for a Niedner cartridge and a couple for the Hornet in each diameter.

As prolific as he was, I have read that every bullet was formed on a hand operated press.

[gnoahhh]

I've shot a bunch of Sisk Lovell bullets over the years (yeah I cut the seals, can't shoot them if they're in the box!), and while they shot ok they didn't behave like modern Sierras or Bergers. The ones I really like though are the 70 grain Sisk's for the Savage .22 High Power.

[marlinman93]

I've shot a bunch of Sisk Lovell bullets over the years (yeah I cut the seals, can't shoot them if they're in the box!), and while they shot ok they didn't behave like modern Sierras or Bergers. The ones I really like though are the 70 grain Sisk's for the Savage .22 High Power.

I've got thousands of jacketed .22 bullets, so no need to break into these vintage bullets. I used to do a lot of varmint hunting with my .22-250 Rem. 700 VSF, and played with everything from as light as 40 grs., up to 65 grs.

[gnoahhh]

I've got thousands of jacketed .22 bullets, so no need to break into these vintage bullets. I used to do a lot of varmint hunting with my .22-250 Rem. 700 VSF, and played with everything from as light as 40 grs., up to 65 grs.

I hear you, Vall. I too have more jacketed .22 bullets than Carter's got Little Liver Pills. It's just that some things in my life I just can't bring myself to "collect" - I gotta draw the line somewhere. Speaking as someone who's main pleasures are derived from playing with the old stuff I sometimes decry the fact that so much of it has disappeared into collections and out of the reach of we users. Guns, sights, ammo/brass/bullets/etc. have fallen prey to those with "collector mentalities" leaving us with "shoot the heck out of stuff mentalities" scratching our butts! Case in point: I bet there's a significant amount of G&H .22-3000 brass buried in cartridge collections that would keep the handful of us old farts who still play with Lovell wildcats and .25-20 SS's going until the end of our days. But no, they've achieved "collectible" status with attendant value escalation and as such will never have their seals broken and fed into neat old rifles - leaving us to have to resort to laborious machinations to make them.

[marlinman93]

I started buying old ammo, and various reloading supplies when nobody wanted it. Back then the old 2 piece lift top boxes of ammo from the late 1800's and early 1900's was maybe $5 a box, and only got $10 if it was full and pristine. My gun buddies I went to shows with always asked why I bought that old stuff, especially if I didn't own a gun in the cartridge? I just bought it because it was cheap, and funds were limited, so I could afford it then.
I haven't bought any old ammo or components in many years, and whatever I've gotten in recent years was given to me by friends. It's all just gone nuts with so much going to internet sales, and driving prices crazy.
I collect, and I shoot, but I don't mind shooting or reloading old cartridges if they're already incomplete, or have been reloaded previously. In fact a lot of stuff that's been reloaded people didn't want at all, and it was even cheaper. I took it home and pulled bullets, and dumped powder to get good brass to shoot. I just wont do it for ammo or components that are complete and in great shape.
I bought a 1885 High Wall last year from a friend that was in .219 Ackley Improved. It came with a bunch of formed brass, and loaded ammo, but also some original Norma loaded in .219 Zipper. I didn't need to shoot that, so I took it with me to the Denver gun show that year and put it on the table cheap at $20 a box. Didn't get a single taker, so I later sold the gun and let the buyer have it all. I thought there'd be plenty of guys wanting that ammo, but guess I was wrong.

[gnoahhh]

Yes, strange times we live in.

[TheCounty]

Thanks so much to brian1 and uscra112 for the details on fettling .223 cases into Lovell form.
I had heard snippets that it could be done, but silly me not figuring to swage down the case, I had thought it may have been an old wives tale.
I really appreciate the details for the turning and am on the lookout to score a 7 x 57 die at the spring gun show & giving it a go.
Just scored 65 good brass at an auction several weeks ago. A mixed bag of WRA,Smith,G&H,Rem,and UMC mostly in "Maximum Lovell" but a few in 2R.
I turned up a swaging die years ago to tailor the head section down to .314 to suit my rifle but as you can appreciate it only can reduce the diameter .002" or maybe .003" on a case without burnishing up a ridge. Salvages a few otherwise unusable cases.
I've about 20 cases that must have been used in a chamber a bit oversized as they measure .320" to .323" next to the rim. These will have to wait for another Lovell rifle to come along that they may fit.
I've posted a short blurb on the Lovell cartridge history on several forums which you likely have seen. I still offer a CD with a compilation of Lovell period articles and other information along with e-copy of Smiths' booklet on the 22-3000.
I enjoy knowing that there are a few others still tinkering with these old cartridges.
Cheers
TheCounty

[uscra112]

I'd be interested in seeing that CD. While I probably won't be shooting any of my Lovells again, owing to health issues, the history still intrigues me.

[brian1]

Thanks so much to brian1 and uscra112 for the details on fettling .223 cases into Lovell form.
I had heard snippets that it could be done, but silly me not figuring to swage down the case, I had thought it may have been an old wives tale.
I really appreciate the details for the turning and am on the lookout to score a 7 x 57 die at the spring gun show & giving it a go.
Just scored 65 good brass at an auction several weeks ago. A mixed bag of WRA,Smith,G&H,Rem,and UMC mostly in "Maximum Lovell" but a few in 2R.
I turned up a swaging die years ago to tailor the head section down to .314 to suit my rifle but as you can appreciate it only can reduce the diameter .002" or maybe .003" on a case without burnishing up a ridge. Salvages a few otherwise unusable cases.
I've about 20 cases that must have been used in a chamber a bit oversized as they measure .320" to .323" next to the rim. These will have to wait for another Lovell rifle to come along that they may fit.
I've posted a short blurb on the Lovell cartridge history on several forums which you likely have seen. I still offer a CD with a compilation of Lovell period articles and other information along with e-copy of Smiths' booklet on the 22-3000.
I enjoy knowing that there are a few others still tinkering with these old cartridges.
Cheers
TheCounty

Are you located in Canada?

[TheCounty]

Hi uscra112, I'll pm you my e-mail so you can give me an address to send a CD to.

Hi brian1, & yes I'm from Canada. North shore of Lake Ontario to narrow it down a bit.
Cheers

[brian1]

@TheCounty I thought so. I remember you. Back several years ago, I had gotten my first 22 R2 Lovell rifle, and I didn't know anything about the caliber. Through some forum I don't recall, I made contact with you and you were MOST helpful in giving me information, as well as your generous sharing of your information CD. I appreciated very much all your helpfulness, so thanks again! Since then, I have learned a lot more about the cartridge, and I've acquired several more rifles chambered with it.
Both you and @uscra112 have been most helpful in expanding my knowledge in this area.
Thanks again and best wishes,
Brian

[brian1]

I'd be interested in seeing that CD. While I probably won't be shooting any of my Lovells again, owing to health issues, the history still intrigues me.

I'm sorry to hear of your health issues. Best wishes to you.

[TheCounty]

Nice to cross paths again Brian.
Also wishing uscra112 the best.
Cheers
ps Another little tidbit regarding the Lovell cartridges that eluded me was the mention, in an old issue of Cartridges of the World, that the Lovell was the first case of a wildcat being formulated out of another wildcat. It seemed to be worded that J. Francis Rabbeth had wildcatted the original 25-20 Single Shot and I found other reference to him being the "first" to wildcat a round, that being the 25-20 Single Shot. No where could I find what Rabbeth had used for the parent case. Finally it surfaced that he used a 32-25 Wesson centerfire. What a rare duck to fettle with. Frank Wesson ( Brother to the Wesson of "Smith&Wesson") made tip-up rifles largely in rimfire, but in the trailing years made a few centerfire calibers & this was one of them. I have one picture of a sample of this round and have a chart of data for his cartridges which show the matching dimensions. Now if I can only find a Wesson tip-up in 32-25 Wesson centerfire I'll have the history right to the start.... haha.

[uscra112]

Have you turned up any of the articles by Allyn Tedmon?

Another bit of the Rabbeth legend is that he first tried to use the Wesson case with a 7mm inside-lubed bullet, but felt it was too destructive, so he necked the case down to .25 caliber.

There's a sidebar to the story - Rueben Harwood, a gunsmith and writer working in Somerville, Mass., in the 1890s, necked the case down still further to make a round called the .22-20 "Harwood Hornet". There's a picture of it in one of Harvey Donaldson's articles, and it looks for all the world like a long-necked R2 Lovell.! So close that when it came to repairing a Stevens 108 that had originally been chambered thus, I used my R2 reamer for part of the job.

[TheCounty]

That name does not sound familiar.