22 Lovell variations

[brian1]

Glad to see this thread back. It’s really a neat cartridge. Brass still is hard to come by but I see the trend now is to accept lower velocities and get the longer case life and the generally superb accuracy. With this in mind it might be time to bring back the concept of making 25-20 SS cases from 223 brass. I tried this years back and then compared the results with what other cases I could round up. What few G&H and later Winchester cases I could find gave reasonable life and you could get the velocities , same with the old Rocky Mountain cases. But the formed 223 cases and especially the Bertram 25-20 SS cases gave incipient head fractures and the Bertram's blew the primer pockets oversized by the second reloading. I found by keeping velocities down around 2600/2750 or so I got good case life with all brass and the accuracy was excellent.

You and I were writing about the 223 to 25-20SS at the same time. I haven't used mine much yet. You said you got incipient head fractures with yours. Are you sure you were pushing the donut all the way to the end? I understand the head will be weak if the donut doesn't go all the way. I cut a cross section in one of mine, and it's quite thick in that area.

[brian1]

Here is a cross section of the donut pushed all the way back. It seems hard to imagine it could separate just forward of that.


And here is a case ready for turning next to one that's been turned and is ready for cutting to length.

[38Special]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. Life has kinda gotten in the way of my shooting, and I still haven't fired my Lovell, ever as yet. Haven't even looked at it for a few years. I don't get it. Need my head examined... lol

[ndnchf]

I make .32 Ballard extra long from .25-20SS and R2 Lovell. But I also make it from 327 magnum, which is not too hard to do.

[Reg]

You and I were writing about the 223 to 25-20SS at the same time. I haven't used mine much yet. You said you got incipient head fractures with yours. Are you sure you were pushing the donut all the way to the end? I understand the head will be weak if the donut doesn't go all the way. I cut a cross section in one of mine, and it's quite thick in that area.

It might well have been that I didn’t push things back far enough. I need to get back into this
Yes. I did get the fractures. I need to get back to the house and pull out some of the older material
I am thinking that what I noticed was I was getting was kind of folded over appearance rather than what you show as a solid wave appearance. With what you are showing I bet you could get to the upper velocities as you are forming a good solid head. It should be very strong but the internal capacity should be reduced. I didn’t have the 7 M/m dies but used a set of 7 m/m Mag dies for my forming die. I doubt if it made any difference as it was the dia. at the neck that we were after.
Will try to post some pics tomorrow

[uscra112]

In making R2 from .223, you absolutely must do the initial pressing so it gets right down to the rim. If you don't, you wind up with a thin region just above the web, which is an open invitation to head separations.

[brian1]

In making R2 from .223, you absolutely must do the initial pressing so it gets right down to the rim. If you don't, you wind up with a thin region just above the web, which is an open invitation to head separations.

You are the gentleman who taught me how to make these, so thanks for your help. It's slow going, but it does work.

[uscra112]

Slow going it certainly is! When Jamison came out with their good quality .25-20 I rejoiced, and bought a metric short ton of it instantly! Now Jamison/Captech is gone, and we're back to square one.

I still use a few of the converted .223 for a very rare Stevens, circa 1874, that was originally chambered .22-20 (the almost unknown Harwood Hornet). Some philistine sleeved the chamber and converted it to the modern Hornet, which was stupid because the old round is .228" groove, so modern ammo doesn't work well at all. (On this account I got it for peanuts.) I converted it back, but the sleeving job was so poorly done that it needs cases with a very heavy wall, and I get that by using the converted cases.

Something interesting about the 1894 .22-20 is that the case is almost exactly the .22 R2, but with the shoulder pushed back about 1/4". Hence I used my R2 reamer for much of the restoration.

[cupter]

Keep the thread going..........................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Reg]

In making R2 from .223, you absolutely must do the initial pressing so it gets right down to the rim. If you don't, you wind up with a thin region just above the web, which is an open invitation to head separations.

Could I ask, what are you using for your forming die?

[brian1]

The female part is the neck portion of a 7x57mm FL die, as it is just the right diameter. The male part is turned from steel to approximately the shape of a 7mm case. My setup requires about 7,000 pounds of force to push the case through. If I go over 4 tons, I am pushing the donut back too far and into the rim.
I'll try to take some detailed pics later

[Reg]

The female part is the neck portion of a 7x57mm FL die, as it is just the right diameter. The male part is turned from steel to approximately the shape of a 7mm case. My setup requires about 7,000 pounds of force to push the case through. If I go over 4 tons, I am pushing the donut back too far and into the rim.
I'll try to take some detailed pics later

Cannot find my earlier notes other than I continuously ran into that inner fracture. The cases made great 25-20 SS cases that seem to last forever but with the additional pressure of the R-2 they cracked out often on the first or second loading.
I don’t have a set of regular 7 m/m dies but am using 7 m/m Mag. The neck dim seems to be the same and for a press it’s a 30 ton elec/hyd. If I can just move the brass to get rid of that inner ring I think it will be a good source of R-2 ! Any info you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

[uscra112]

I used the 7x57 die because 7x57 has the shallowest shoulder angle of any of the 7mms.

[Reg]

I used the 7x57 die because 7x57 has the shallowest shoulder angle of any of the 7mms.

I wonder if that shoulder angle could have anything to do with how the brass flows??

[uscra112]

I'm sure it does. You want the metal squeezed inward, not just mashed up against the rim. I would have been happier with an even shallower angle, but the 7x57 was the best I could find among the 7mms.

[Reg]

I'm sure it does. You want the metal squeezed inward, not just mashed up against the rim. I would have been happier with an even shallower angle, but the 7x57 was the best I could find among the 7mms.

You have me thinking now. Need to get a couple of things out of the way before I can try it but I am thinking of making a pre form die using a taper pin reamer. This might move more of the brass inward with less of the swelling on the outside and might completely eliminate the possibility of the ring forming ???

[uscra112]

Worth a try, but it would have to be hardened and polished, I would think.

I never saw that "ring" issue, but I was aware that it could happen, and worked to prevent it.

[brian1]

I just made a video of the process of how to do this. I am no video guy, and my knowledge of how to use my video editing software does not extend beyond the absolute basics, but hopefully this rather hokey video I put together will give you a picture of the process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sZqUX731qo

[gnoahhh]

Make no apologies, Brian. That's a very informative video. Speaking as one who is prepping to convert around 10,000 Lake City .223's into ..25-20 SS and Lovell brass this winter (well, maybe only a hundred or so to start!), you've answered a couple niggling thoughts.

I'll be using a big old monster arbor press, don't ask me its tonnage because I don't know. Leverage augmented with a cheater pipe. Your hints for using a nipple to prevent the primer pocket from collapsing and a reference line inscribed on the pusher probably saved me some grief. I figure on making a stop block under the ram of the press also to limit travel, cut-and-try until desired depth is achieved.

My lathe is rather a lot more primitive than yours though. While it runs true, and the tail stock is centered dead nuts, it is indeed an 80 year old Sebastian with no digital controls for depth of cut and feed, it's purely analog - so that is my biggest stumbling block to overcome. Consistently repetitive cuts are paramount, at least for "production" work. I'll work it out. I hope!

Do you see any advantage to annealing any portion of the brass during the process (taking care to avoid such in the case head area of course)?

Have you found any .223 brass to work better than others? (My joke about using Lake City stuff was that, a joke - if I'm going to all this trouble I wish to use something that probably hasn't been fired already. I have a couple hundred virgin pieces of Lapua brass earmarked for the project.) Did I see you employing Imperial Sizing Wax as a lubricant?

[uscra112]

My original pressing punch has a shoulder that stops it on the mouth of the 7mm die. Hence controlling the pressure is not an issue so long as it's enough. I used to run my press's gage up to about 4000 psi.

Federal .223 worked best for me. Seemed to need less pressure.

In the lathe: Make the driver of steel, not aluminum. Make a steel rod about 2" long and the diameter of the case mouth, with a tiny tit on the front end to center it in the flash hole, and a 60 degree center on the other end. (Center in the photo below) With this you can put some pressure on with the live center to keep the case from slipping on the driver. Now you can take the whole final diameter in one cut. I just left the cross slide at .315", moved the carriage out in Z about a half inch while setting a new piece, then light feed to the end-point in Z. A SHARP carbide tool with about 2 degrees of back rake works best. Miked each case before taking it out of the lathe, and gave it a lick with a safe-edged lathe file if it wasn't down to size. (Safe edge to avoid taking any metal off the rim, which is already too thin.)

(My Krag's chamber was cut small. I had to make a batch with base diameter .312" max to get them to fit. These needed more than a light lick with the file.)



n.b. I opened the .223 to .257 as the first step. Thus the two tools that enter the case mouth can be 1/4" diameter.