Deathmatch for Bull Goose Looney at Raton
The gossip mill has it that Mike Venturino (aka Mr Traditional Sharps, other than grease groove bullets) is supposed to be doing battle Mano-A-Mano today with Brent Danielson (aka the Heretic Paper-patch King) at Raton to prove the superiority of one bullet style over the other.
The results should be rather interesting.
Rich
I love it!
I wish I could be there, just to watch it.
I do not know how to explain it, I am sure my wife would fall asleep with boredom.
I would not.
Just to watch it, woud make my day, no matter who won.
Sounds like a Keith/Oconner scribe dual to sell mags.
Would be fun to play though.
Blessings
BIC/BS
Brent could care less which bullet type is superior. He is like a moth and will go wherever the light is brightest. This is a publicity stunt. It is being done to get his name mentioned in assocation with a nationally known gun writer and how Brent challenged him to a duel. He can't lose either way it turns out, or whether or not Mike even accepts the challenge. Bragging rights, publicity, and name recognition is what this is all about, and it's just another reason why everybody in the BPCR shooting game who knows him, has little regard for him, and that is a shame. This sport should be about, and for most of us it is about having fun while shooting these old rifles.
I hope all of you boys are on the firing line making noise and smoke somewhere and keeping your fellow shooters awake and it does not matter if you are shooting grease grove or paper patch bullets. My regards to all of you out there keeping this grand old American tradition alive and well. And all the best to Mike and Brent. That shootout ought to be a blast no matter what the out come.
Last edited by Black Prince; 07-31-2008 at 10:07 AM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
Originally Posted by docone31
Watching the paper matches at Raton is about as exciting as watching paint dry on a cold , humid day.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I think that Bullshop and Black Prince are right, although I kill to get to Raton, or Quigley, or any of the big shoots in US. This biggest comp for BPCR that we have over here is the Billy Dixon, which I had to miss this year due to manpower shortages at work.
WHEN IN DOUBT, USE MORE CLOUT!
...............While I LOVE the way a paper patched boolit looks in it's cartridge, and it may indeed be the finest of all hunting projectiles, I will admit it may have it's limitations. I have no doubt that the patched slug has been experimented with to death, for target use.
If it had a definate advantage then EVERYONE would be using them, even if they had to pay to get them patched. On the other hand the patch is JUST ANOTHER VARIABLE in reloading and shooting. Variables are things to be avoided if at all possible. An experienced shooter who has managed to at least partially master reading the wind fires a shot. Conditions looked good and the sights were 'on' at ignition and the shot felt good.
Yet the slug just misses in some manner. Did the patch come off cleanly at the muzzle or did a piece go along for part of the ride?
..................Buckshot
Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always
Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.
"The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance
If paper patch bullets are superior, SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE would be loading them and they would be available to shooters everywhere. Now that doesn't mean that they can't be shot accurately, because they certainly can. And it doesn't mean that Brent can't out shoot Mike because he certainly may. He is a good shooter and Mike is a fair shooter. The outcome of any match between them is more likely because of their respective shooting abilty than any superiority of either grease grove or paper patched bullets.
I truly hope that they did have such a match and that Mike will write an article about the results because it will be interesting reading. But any of you who've ever shot paper patched bullets know how careful you have to be with them and on a rainy day, that can be hard to do. So for hunters, or anyone exposed to the elements, grease groove bullets have seemed like the best way to go for the last 100 years and I'm thinking we are not likely to see a movement to go back to them any time soon regardless of what the outcome of any such shooting match turns out to be.
But you know fellas, it doesn't matter anyway because a day spent on the firing line making that wonderful smelling smoke is a day well spent and it doesn't matter if you are making that smoke using grease groove or paper patch bullets.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
Paper patchin is a hoot. It gives a feller something new to play with without the expense of a new rifle, cartridges etc.
They are extremely accurate some of the groups Kenny Wasserberger posted at 1000 were almost unbelievable.
But when it gets down to brass tacs, as one well known shooter put it to me in a private conversation , paper patch is great, but if I had to stake my life on a bullet , it'ld be a grease groove
This fued thing between Brent and MLV etal, isn't quite reported right here, it can all be found on the Shiloh board with enough digging.
Bottom line is I hope all the parties that were involved got their differences at least settled or some sort of mutuall understanding was arrived at now that Raton is about done till next year.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Look back to the progression of developments that got us where we are today. The accuracy nuts of the day started out using patched sluggs in thier fine muzzle loading cap locks. That lead to using patched bullets in the muzzle loading cartridge guns. Yes they were muzzle loaded even though the rifles were of breach loading design.
There were several patching methods in use including the Chase patch, or cross patch.
When they felt they had taken the patched slugg as far as it could go the next progression was to grooved boolits.
First off as when dealing with any stuborn lot not wanting to change or leave the flock it was believed that the grooved boolit could not really seriously compete with the patched slugg. After a bit when such notables as Harry Pope accepted the grooved boolit to be equally as accurate as a patched slugg paper patching went out of fashion, just as did muzzle loading a breach loading rifle when the same notables found that breach seating a grooved boolit ahead of a charged case gave equal or better accuracy.
After that and until now the grooved boolit has been the one to set records like the Roland/Pope group that I believe stood as a world record for about 70 years. I chalange anyone on this board to best that shooting with any gun, scope, or ammo you can get your hands on. Going by poor memory it was something like .75" c/c ten shots at 40 rods or 1/8 mile or 220 yards, take your pick. Any takers?
Anyways if them shooters like Mr. Roland went to grooved boolits from patched sluggs I expect there was good reason for it.
With that said God willing I will soon, opening day is Aug 10 be hunting moose and caribou with a 50/90 and 575 gn PP. The rifle is a Browning/Winchester high wall. The mold is from Kaltool in and adjustable smooth side cup base or flat base, and a wonderful work of machinist art that tool is. So far I have taken moose, mule deer, and a nice grizzly bear with patched boolits and am well pleased with the performance on game.
God willing hope to have some good reports in the fall.
Blessing
BIC/BS
Last edited by Bullshop; 07-31-2008 at 01:54 PM.
Unfortunately, that isn't the only place where the feud is or has been going on Don. You can see it very often on the ASSRA board and several others as well. It is always present anywhere he is. Many shooters just never accept that superior attitude and those constant condecending remarks that he is so well know for making. Most of us usually get as far away from him as we can on the shooting line and enjoy the day shooting anyway. We are not there trying to prove that we are the best shooter in the entire world, or that we know everything about everything.
The GOOD NEWS is that there are more than enough really great people out there to make up for the few who just can't behave as adults and always have to have their way about everything. Those are the guys who make this such a great sport and well worth going to the various shooting events to meet them. Many of you boys have made my day at shoots and have enriched my life greatly and I go to certain shoots just to see some of you. Heck, I can shoot right out of my back door if I want to. You boys make it worth while to pack up and go way off over younder to shoot.
Last edited by Black Prince; 07-31-2008 at 08:44 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
Hello
I've been paper patching for seven years,and cannot produce a round that will shoot as accurately as my grooved bullets.
They do shoot a lot faster,though.To me,that neans that they are better for hunting.
Frank
Black Prince I know some of the players, in the melodrama.
I stand by my previuos statement that , I'm hoping they all made their presence known to each other at Raton, and that the vitriol can come to some sort of end. Sometimes some pretty good threads with good info have gotten turned into garbage, and hopefully this will help bring a slow down or better yet a complete end to it.
Or at least until the next guy nobody knows shows up and starts to ..........
Long range rules, the rest drool.
No matter what the New Age Experts say, the paper patch bullet was loaded by almost all of the factories back in the 1870-1885 era when all of the buffalo were killed. It doesn't take much research to prove that. Mike is a great guy, but he chose to use grease groove bullets starting off on his writing career. Had he been as a big a stickler for bullet accuracy as powder, he would have contributed much more to the historical side of his writing. His promotion of GG over PP in writing about "Buffalo Rifles" is about as historically correct as using Pyrodex at a BPCRS match. If you read about the LR matches in the 1870's, like the Elcho Shield and the famous Irish with their ML, vs the US in 1874, we shot PP bullets in that match.
Also, Brent (as big a horse's ass as he is) is not the one badmouthing the other one on BP website forums. The posts are done by grease groove advocates.
Still no news of the big shoot out.
Rich
Don, my join date at Cast Bullets is 2006. Yours seems to be listed as 2008. I'm sure that must be an error. I had no idea that you are such a well known expert. I’m sorry. I must have missed that. I should have known better, but after all, I'm a nobody that “showed up” here two years before you.
I do however, share your hope that as you put it “I'm hoping they all made their presence known to each other at Raton, and that the vitriol can come to some sort of end.” And now that your presence is known to me, I’ll be much more respectful of your position in the future. You really do know Brent well, don’t you? Are you brothers by any chance?
Please give him my highest regards the next time you see him and all the best to both of you. Also, since you know some of the players and are much more closely involved with this, I’m sure you’ll be the first to know the Raton match results, so we'll all be looking for you to post the results here.
Thanks.
Last edited by Black Prince; 08-01-2008 at 04:34 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
I don't know who is the better rifleman and I DON'T CARE. The match can ONLY show who the match winner is. There was a time when I cared about bragging rights. Thankfully, that time is past. I do hope both shooters have fun. Most rifles are as accurate as the operator. I'm not so good anymore. I can still come close enough to the mark to give him some bad dreams. I don't worship or follow blindly any so called expert on any subject. I usually pick out what I want and disregard the rest. I have a great respect for the people here but, I make up my own mind on what I accept and what I don't. I would like to see the results of the match. A hit is a hit. A miss is a miss.
Yawn. (My take on the competition between the "sides" of this issue). Why does this - just like so much else - HAVE to become a competition, or more correctly....a "grudge match" ? I can never understand the propensity for turning everything into a battle.
Having said that, I will say this. I adopted cast bullets because jacketed ones became (IMHO) too bloody expensive (a "ripoff", really). I tried paper-patching because I didn't like the ridiculous prices of gas-checks (also a "ripoff"....with the excuse, like jacketed bullets, that metals prices have caused all of the increase. That is bull.) Paper-patching happens to work well for me. That is, I get the results I want, at relatively low cost. So, I care not one whit for which might be ultimately, technically "better". I use what works for me. Period. The rest, to paraphrase a line from a movie, if I may...."is only colored bubbles".
Sounds like a bunch of squatydoodle to me. One of our lurkers, who is also a top shooter in the BPCR game was laughing about some of the egos and personalities involved today. It seems we both have a rather low opinion on some of the "experts" who expound freely upon the electrons of the internet.
If anything was going to be proved, (maybe), each would have to shoot the others rifles and loads, to see who was the better weather, and trigger man.
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
Don't quite know what to say, there prince, would help I guess , if I knew if your just a drunk or a doper.
But here we go I'll try to answer your drivel paragraph by paragraph.
Not quite sure how your 2006 join date on an internet site is supposed to give you some sort of high boots over someone elses 40+ years of experience , but oky doky if that's what helps you deal with your little man syndrom.........
You nor nobody else has ever heard or ever will hear me refer to myself as an expert at anything. I do have a good bit of experience with black powder in muzzleloaders, and cartridges, that goes back along time. I did say I do know some of the folks involved in that stupid fued, and that's all there is to it.
I hope they get it settled.
As to your assertion of Brent and I being buddies,
Likely the only way I'll know what happened at Raton this year will be to read it on one of the boards just like you will, unless I happen to visit with some one before hand, but given the long days I'm putting in trying to get hay up at the moment, that's not likely to happen.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Yup unless they were given identical rifles , and loads that weren't their own, probably won't be much prooved. If they both had either the same spotter, or no spotter at all would help. Even if something like that did happen like was said above here someplace that'ld still only really tell us about who won that day.
One thing that does come shining thru on just about any of these internet boards, some of the self inflated choosen few whom , we should all sufficienty avert our eyes from when they pass by, seem to have a real hard time dealing with someone that doesn't run in their clique knowing anything.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
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