Blue Dot warning from Alliant?

[felix]

Just maybe I could be of help here, considering my experiences with BD. I have used several different older lots of it in quantity, ALL before the formulas started to change. My standard loads were/are 10-150K-357M, 12.5-220K-41M, 14.5-250K-44M, 9-60(225646)-222, all with CCI/Rem standard pistol. I shoot these loads only between 40 and 90 degrees which is in my comfort zone. These older lots are consistent enough day-to-day to where I could not tell any realistic difference in performance, velocity or accuracy.

Yes, the powder pressure spikes tremendously when pushed over the edge. Accuracy is quite smooth when using a quasi 15 percent reduction below that pressure edge which is fairly easy to determine with recoil alone. Unfortunately, accuracy keeps getting better as the edge is approached, and that is a major problem with BD in the hands of inexperienced users.

Along comes WW630 to hopefully take care of that problem. This powder has the speed regulated exactly half way between BD and 2400. There are no powders currently made which fit this bill.

Here is my speculation. It is difficult to formulate a powder in this speed range. BD lot changes of late deal with the dirty bore syndrome, and yet some chemist tried to introduce a formulation to eliminate that top end problem, as well as the crystal changes well below freezing temps. All powders are made with a controlled water content, and perhaps the BD performance range depends on that value being very closely regulated. When the powder dries out in storage of any kind, it's pressure capability is adversely affected because of the lack of tolerance.

In other words, it has been especially difficult to make a powder faster than 2400 and slower than Herco with stability required across all applications, gun and weather combined.

... felix

[Slogg76]

I can not speculate as to what the problem is with Bluedot powder, but I have been using Alliant's Bluedot for several years in 357 magnum and 41 magnums without any problems. I went with Bluedot because the accuracy is superb and H110 was very eratic in both my 41's and 357's. I currently have three pounds of the stuff. I hope I don't have to waste it.

[copdills]

Thanks for the information Safty First

[Larry Gibson]

I had a project to do for Ga Tech that required 223 FMJ bullets be fired , simulating different ranges. I got down as low as 5 gr to get 22LR velocities (223 at 600 yards).

All were run over a crony and none exhibited anything untoward.

I was shooting at a new armor at 25 yards and managed to "Catch" a 223 FMJ in that 1"X 1/2" X 1/2" piece of armor. Each new, lower, load had to be re-sighted and then 1 shot at the small target. As the target is .5 inches wide and the bullet is .224 you could only be .15 off center to get a valid hit. Otherwise you would get edge effects.

I have heard of problems with loads in the 9-13 gr range in the 223, but my experience sure didn't show it.

I fired over 200 rounds of 55 FMJ's with that powder with great results.

The wife (Her Ruger #1V,223) shot a .236"(C to C) 100 yard group using 11.3 gr Blue Dot under a Nosler 45 Ballistic tip bullet.

Maybe the rumor of them changing the formula is what the problem is. The "Old" stuff was great, for reduced loads in the 223.

As for hand guns, 2400,H110, 296, Unique, BE, red dot, all get the nod in my hand guns. But then again all these shoot real Boolits not that condom stuff.

Good Shooting,

Two trees

I've fired quite abit of reduced loads with .223s using J bullets also. A favorite was the M193 bullet pulled, powder dumped and replaced with the powder from a .45 or 9mm and with the bullet seated in backwards and crimped with blasting cap crimpers (the SF engineer on the Team had those of course) . Velocity was 1500+ fps, accuracy good (especially with bullet reseated backwards) and sounded about like the blank out of my M61A1. They didn't function the action BTW. Did quite a bit of hunting down in the Panama and Hondo jungles, guess I read Whelen's writing about his trips and reduced loads in his '03 when he was down that way.

Anyways I don't think the reduced load of 11 gr BD you were/are using is where the problem might be. The potential problem seems would come with the 14 gr loads where the pressures are high and the BD might not burn in a linear fashion. Again, just assumptions here as I've not conducted any tests. Might be as some others mention; just Alliant being careful.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I can not speculate as to what the problem is with Bluedot powder, but I have been using Alliant's Bluedot for several years in 357 magnum and 41 magnums without any problems. I went with Bluedot because the accuracy is superb and H110 was very eratic in both my 41's and 357's. I currently have three pounds of the stuff. I hope I don't have to waste it.

I'm about in the ame boat you are. BD is my "go to" powder for magnum loads in the .357 and .41. It also is my high performance powder in the Spanish Destroyer With the barrel set back to headspace on .38 Super cases. I have almost 4 pounds of BD and quite a few .41s loaded with it. Not so many .357s but still a pain if I decide to pull 'em.

Larry Gibson

[Wayne Smith]

Were the Alliant loads different from the loads from other companies? I read the warning to be a retraction of their data, not a blanket retraction of the powder in those applications.

[runfiverun]

i am in felix's camp here...
i think they are trying to keep up with the hodgdons line and they missed something
with the new stuff.
blue dot has long lost it's effectiveness in the cold,,,hence the steel powder.
i have thrown a few loads together with steel and there are some posssibilities there
but it is a pain to measure.
a reduction in moisture content would shrink the powder, and cause a lower reading
on your scale causing you to use more.
both potential problems.

[Camba]

I have experimented loads with BD for a number of years and developed my own loading tables for the following cartridges:
1. 223 Rem, 55gr j-bullet, WIN/CCI small pistol primers, Max load (in my rifle only) 12gr of BD (2560fps). After that, the primers begin showing pressure signs.
2. 7mm-08 Rem, 130gr Speer, Win/CCI LP/LR primers, Best accuracy 16 to 17gr BD at 1970fps.
3. 218 Bee, 45gr Hornet bullet, CCI-500 sp primers, Max (my Taurus revolver load) 7.5gr BD, 1600fps
And pretty much all the guns and calibers that I own including shotgun and pistols (9mmP, 357 mag, 38 spc, 44 mag, 45 colt, 45acp, etc.)
I did the experiment with all the powders and primers and worked out my loads a 0.5gr increments in large cases and 0.1 increments in smaller cases.
I developed my loading table using pistol primers and stop when crater begin to show or other primer pressure signs. I also used a Chrony for measuring speed.
I happen to believe that the powder manufacturers follow their quality controls on powder production. Packaging, in the other hand could mix things up but BD has the famous blue color flakes. Every lot is tested to the recipe standard and if for some reason it does not meet the spec, it becomes something else. Scrap. If they want to change the characteristics of that powder, then they make a new product and they obsolete the old. Pretty much all manufactures of powder do that.
Anyway, my point is that I love BD powder for my all around reloading at lower velocities than the "normal" loads using the proper rifle powders. The credit goes to other persons that published low velocity loaded rounds for multiple calibers using BD. I found it interesting, tried, and got hooked. And I had just recently found 10 lbs of BD so I am all set for sometime. Remember that every rifle is different and the loads I mentioned were tailored to my own guns only.
Camba

[TMenezes]

You brought back this post from 2008? Why not just start a new thread? I was exited about Blue Dot for awhile as the books showed it delivered impressive velocity at standard pressures in 45 Colt. It was fun to shoot as it made my standard pressure loads feel like magnums with all the blast and impressive flash. But I was never was able to get very good accuracy with it in my revolvers or lever guns, no idea why. Same guns, brass, boolits, and everything. So I don't use it much at the moment. Maybe someday I'll find combo that works great for it, but for now it sits rarely used anymore.

Thing is, if your looking for low pressure loads in pistol calibers I have had great luck with Tightgroup, 700X, Trail Boss, and a few other much faster burning powders than Blue Dot. I've always thought of Blue Dot as a powder for semi magnum type loads. With 12.9gr loads in 45 Colt (max listed by Alliant) it burned clean, but at the starting loads I was getting unburned powder spitting out of my revolver onto my hands and arms.

[uscra112]

I'll go with the lawyer-phobia theory. They saw something in testing. They don't know what it is. But if they don't post the warning, and some lawyer gets hold of their data during disclosure in some current or future lawsuit, the "failure to warn" theory gets the lawyers another 50 million in damages. This happens all the time in pharmaceutical lawsuits. One of the tricks that "Silky Pony" Edwards use to make himself rich.

I use BD in my 7.5x55 with some hard boolits to get 2200 fps, and great accuracy. Still using up a store of 2400 in my .357.

Trying to duplicate top slow powder velocities in bottleneck cartridges by using BD seems a recipe for trouble, IMHO. Pressure spikes pretty much guaranteed.


EDIT: - Hah! didn't notice that this was a 2008 thread!!

[Camba]

My bad. I did not pay attention to the date. It was one of the threads that I had not read so it was for some reason at my finger tips reach.
Camba

[dverna]

Camba,

I am glad you resurrected this old thread. I had not heard of the pressure spike issue with BD. I bought some BD recently to try to push 9mm velocity in a carbine but will not try that now.

Thanks,

Don Verna

[mdi]

When this warning first came out and reading many, many posts about .357 and 41 Magnum loads I came to the conclusion that some combinations of 125 gr. bullets over Bluedot in .357 Magnum could produce pressure spikes (not every load, but the possibility still existed). I think if it were absolutely a dangerous combination, all the Bluedot would be recalled and production stopped (I never heard of a kaboom with BD in these calibers). Same with .41 Magnum, the possibility of pressure spike existed and to be on the safe side Alliant posted the warning. I still use Bluedot in my .44 Magnums with 250 gr. and 265 gr bullets...

[leadman]

I spoke with Ben at Alliant about this when it came out. They did notice pressure anomalies with the light bullets in 357 and in several loads in the 41 mag. They didn't bother to run a series of tests on the 41 but just gave a "don't use it in the 41" statement.
I explained my cast boolit load with velocity readings and case measurements and he said mine was a good load.
I recently bought some Alliant Power Pro 300 MP (magmun pistol) and there was no 41 mag data I could find so called Alliant. Once again they did not consider the 41 mag worthy of developing load data for.

[Digital Dan]

Having seen the notice from Alliant some time back and their very specific exclusions for load combos I would be inclined to think new data or multiple recent events precipitated the event.

There is a fella wandering cyberspace who has done a lot of work with BD and bottle neck cases, notably the .223. He has been forthright in publishing the spread of data, to include the point where pressure signs began to manifest. I've had no problems with his data at charge levels at or below his expressed or implied maximum loads. That said, there was a recent event where a guy rudely dismantled his rifle at a public range while shooting a .223 bolt gun with BD. Question is open as to whether the fella was conforming to recommended loads or perhaps double charged a case.

There was some conversation above about burn rates being altered by increased pressure. The operative word for that is quickness. Burn rates are a constant but quickness is highly variable and influenced by each and every aspect of a given cartridge and load menu.

[Larry Gibson]

Since starting this thread years ago I have ran pressure tests of BD in the 357 and 44 magnums. I have found "pressure anomalies" in both cartridges only when the BD was compressed. Those "anomalies" were a degradation of pressure as more BD was added and compressed. There is a sticky on the 44 Magnum test.

I did find that an older max load under a 125 gr JSP in the .357 from a couple manuals, while showing absolutely no psi problems in my Ruger Security Six or Contender, gave an average psi of 42,200 psi(M43). There were no "pressure spikes", just an even but high time/pressure curve. I've found BD to be an excellent powder for magnum level loads in the 41 and 44 magnums also when the powder is not compressed.

Larry Gibson

[Sig]

The one thing about this that I can't wrap my head around is Alliant still lists BD loads for 110, 140, 158 & 170gn bullets. I could understand if Alliant had removed the 110gn as well as the 125gn. But how can a weight that falls in between two safe weights test dangerous?

[TMenezes]

I wouldn't hesitate to try Blue Dot with any current load data. I'm not the least bit worried as I trust current pressure tested data, especially since I usually use heavier lead slugs instead of the light weight jacketed rounds. Also I don't load near max in high pressure magnums, just no need to generate more recoil than necessary. I'm looking more for accuracy than all out power.

[30calflash]

The one thing about this that I can't wrap my head around is Alliant still lists BD loads for 110, 140, 158 & 170gn bullets. I could understand if Alliant had removed the 110gn as well as the 125gn. But how can a weight that falls in between two safe weights test dangerous?

Years back the NRA did a lot of testing for 308 M14 loads as it was the service rifle at that time. There was one load with IMR 4320 with a certain combination of case brand, bullet and primer that went thru the roof at times. All standard weight match bullets and components from US manufacturers. Wide spreads in velocity and pressure. Other components used even when only one was changed did not have the sane end result.

.The story was "don't use this combo" Period. No reason besides that. Just a recommendation to thoughtful reloaders.

Some things don't add up mathematically but it's just like a lot of other things, there can always be the exception.

[osteodoc08]

My email reply said they were having pressure spikes. I just don't understand how it would spike in 41 for all loads and not in 357/44/45.