Gibson, not Camp or Ayoob, right about Win vs Rem FBI Load Lead Softness

[Petrol & Powder]

I have a long dedication to the "FBI Load" and have no reason to question the information provided in this thread. I will say that taking a limited sample of ANY load is bound to produce numbers that are not true when compared to a larger sample. That's nothing more than sampling error.
I'm not certain that any of this information changes much. I've used every factory loading of the "FBI Load" over the years but the Remington load is by far the most common and easiest/cheapest to acquire; therefore the load I've shot the most.

I've always operated under the theory that bullet expansion is just the icing on the cake. If the bullet expands, great. If the bullet doesn't expand but penetrates adequately, I can live with that.

Over many years, decades actually, the basic FBI load has proven to be a reliable self-defense load when fired from short barrels. It is that short barrel performance that makes the FBI load shine. The Remington version may be slightly better when fired from a 2" barrel but only a large sample tested against an equally large sample of another load will tell the tale.

[Texas by God]

It was killed off! They got labeled as cop killer bullets because the teflon let the penetrate a vest.

Nope. They were Nylon coated lead - CCI Blazer makes them now. You're thinking of the Teflon coated bronze KTW loads that were sold ONLY to Police in the first place.

[Texas by God]

Does anyone know the hardness of the Hornady swaged/knurled 158gr lead hollow points?

[CHeatermk3]

Thomas, they are dead-soft.

[Texas by God]

Thank you sir. As far as the Nyclads- I bought some in 9mm persuasion by CCI but labeled Herters' last year.

[44MAG#1]

KTW loads were sold only to police later but not earlier. SSK industries marketed them at one time

[ddixie884]

I wonder why the major ammo companies don't load a FBI type load especially to deliver 850fps+ from a 2" barrel, since expansion is so limited at 800fps.

[sawinredneck]

I wonder why the major ammo companies don't load a FBI type load especially to deliver 850fps+ from a 2" barrel, since expansion is so limited at 800fps.

I'd imagine it's from a recoil perspective, with .357's so readily available now people use full house .357's for carry and .38's for plinking. Why take the abuse from a diet .357?
I obviously can't back any of that up though. Buffalo Bore does make a 158grn at 1,100fps if you really want one.

[Green Frog]

Are both hollow points the same shape and size? Have you or anyone else given a thought about that? Or is it just jump on and hang on?

Wonder if mainstream ammo companies will try soft lead powder coated boolits for self defense ammo. I remember nyclad from federal in the early 80's but I think it died off.

I was wondering about the Federal Nyclad +P loads the FBI carried in the '70s as well. I've been holding on to a small supply for years for serious use in my CCW/EDC gun. I'm currently at about a half box or so but would dearly love a couple hundred more.

Froggie

[ddixie884]

Wonder if mainstream ammo companies will try soft lead powder coated boolits for self defense ammo. I remember nyclad from federal in the early 80's but I think it died off.

Underwood offers a .38spl +P Hi-Tech Coated SWCHPGC. I ordered a few boxes just at the beginning of the present unpleasantness......

[pettypace]

I wonder why the major ammo companies don't load a FBI type load especially to deliver 850fps+ from a 2" barrel, since expansion is so limited at 800fps.

Is it possible that the FBI load actually performs better from a 2" barrel?

Here's Fackler's wound profile for the FBI load from a 4" barrel:



Here's another way to look at the same load:





What happens from a 2" barrel? Less velocity and less expansion. Exactly how much less of each is speculation. But let's speculate that velocity drops to 775 f/s and expansion drops to 0.47". Now, the penetration and wound mass look like this:



With more penetration and equal wound mass, I think the snubby might be more effective than the 4 inch barrel.

Of course, this is just speculation. But some half gallon milk cartons full of water, a cardboard box full of pillow stuffing, the cut-off legs from some old jeans, a snubby, a chronograph, and a vernier caliper could turn speculation into science. Oops! I forgot the most important part -- a box of FBI loads. That's the part I'm missing. I'll check at Snubbyfest today to see if any of the usual suspects have FBI loads.

[30calflash]

Being an old guy that carries this in my edc I can't recall where I read it but the story stated that the round expanded to about 70 cal when fired from a 4" bbl, about 50 cal from a 2" bbl. Prolly fired into water without clothing to change things.

Less expansion = more penetration.

[44MAG#1]

Here comes ole simple minded me. I would just carry a nice 3 inch 1911 or a Glock M36 with a good FP cast bullet of around 230 grains and be done with it.
No fuss or bother just simply put it in my waist band or OWB holster and go.
The reason I said what I said is it seems there is a lot of concern about what the FBI did, does or will do.
Just trying to look at something in a simple way. NOT trying to deflect in a negative way but just trying to sooth some peoples concern.

[USSR]

My personal FBI Load hollowpoint testing, done using a 2.5" S&W Model 19. Middle 158gr HP at 845fps, and the one on the right at 940fps.

Don

[popper]

Not in the FBI so I don't care. bullet expansion is just the icing on the cake. If the bullet expands, great. If the bullet doesn't expand but penetrates adequately, I can live with that.
An OP did a 38 snubby cast test here several years ago, got best expansion/penetration/wt retention with 50/50 Pb/Sn moderate HP.

[RJM52]

As to using the FBI load in a snubby...a friend shot a guy who had just shot at him and missed at less than 10 yards. The bullet hit the guy in the neck. Guy dropped the gun and ran. Friend ran after him (the guy had burglarized a business) and after a knock-down-drag-out fight shot him this time with a 25-5 .45 Colt (long story).

The guy died from the shot with the .45 Colt and at the autopsy the unexpanded .38 round was removed from the guys neck... My friend's gun was a 2" Model 60... I'm not sure which brand of ammo it was as it was issued duty ammo that varried with the contract. I do know that it chronographed at 950 fps from a 4" 64...

If I ever carry a snubby again it will be with the Buffalo Bore +P that is running 1000 fps from a 2". My general purpose load of 6.0 grains of Unique runs 960 from a 2" 649.

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

For hunting or defense, I just stick with ammo that is accurate and reliable in my guns. If I can place the boolits where they need to go then I have the best chance of success. Carrying my Ruger LCP II .22 with Aguila Interceptor 40 grain as I write this. Its accurate, reliable, and gets 1000 fps out of this little gun across my chronograph.

[Outpost75]

Barrel-cylinder gap is very often the determining factor. Many current J-frame hammerless revolvers have huge cylinder gaps, over 0.008", compared to older ones which were generally 0.004-0.006. Also a typical J-frame snub barrel really isn't 2 inches, but is 1-7/8". The combined effect produces a Delta-V of minus~40 fps, and often -50 fps or more if firing in a .357 vs. a .38 Special chamber.

[pettypace]

The most suspect of the usual Snubbyfest suspects came up with a box of Remington FBI loads, a few of which he was willing to donate in the interest of science.

I took three shots, each through four layers of denim, through a 1/2 gallon milk carton of water, and into a cardboard box full of pillow stuffing. First shot was from a 4" S&W Heavy Duty the next two from a 2" 640 (38 Special, B/C gap=0.006").

[Butzbach]

Surely you can look into the cavities with a critical eye or even do a water volumn test by weighing the cartridges with the HP cavities empty the filling them with water and re weighing them to find out.

How ‘bout a Play-dough cavity cast in fluorescent pink?