Not a drilling, and not a 9.3

[Wayne Smith]

I got the gun my brother told me he was sending me. He called it a 16x16x9.3, but admitted he didn't know about the 9.3.

Well, I dropped a .413 lubed pure lead bullet down the barrel. Bore .400, groove .408! I already have a mold for this beast! I'll do a chamber cast tomorrow.

It's a Cape Gun, one barrel is twist steel 16 ga, the other is fluid steel .40 rifle. It's made by F KUHNER (umlaut over the U) in STETTIN, now in Germany. I'd guess it's circa 1880-1900. Beautiful checkering, carved bone pistol grip, lever under forearm to break/lock the action. Geogeous brown all over. True sidelock action. This rifle just begs to go hunting, preferably Razorback boar in North Carolina!

Anybody know anything about Mr. Kuhner and his rifles?

[JSH]

Dang it man, you can't talk about such things with out posting a picture.
Jeff

[waksupi]

I Agree with that. I've had the hots for a drilling for many a year. There is some sort of fascination that I have held for multi barreled firearms and would like to have one to play with eventually.

I did get my hands on a heavy military trainer this weekend in 22 caliber that I've been having fun with today. I managed to steered a 2in. group at 50yds. offhwhat and with my eyesite is that still is pretty good.

I'm playing with my new voice recognition on the computer , so you guys will just have to put up with some gobbledygook for a while until it learns what I'm saying to it . I am impressed that it picked up gobbledygook

[drinks]

Wayne;
The 2005 Standard Catalog of Firearms does not list Kuhnel and I get no results with Yahoo or Google.
It must have been a very small co. that did very little production.
Sorry.
If you can do a chamber cast, I would be glad to help find something you can shoot in the rifle.
There are several companies that make low pressure shotshells for twist and damascus barreled guns, that should not be a problem.

[Johnch]

I have a S/S 20 gau. with Twist barrels and 2 1/2" chambers .
I load Pyrodex and cut down plastic hulls .
I load card wads , but have loaded plastic wads .

Sounds like you have a toy to play with

Johnch

[floodgate]

Wayne:

"Anybody know anything about Mr. Kuhner and his rifles?"

Contact Rudi Prusok at rprusok@nmu.edu. Rudi is Editor Emeritus and Archivist to the Am. Single-Shot Rifle Association, a retired teacher of German, and an expert on all firearm-related info from there. If he can't answer your question himself, he'll find you someone who can. Dismount the barrels and copy down ALL the marks, letters and numbers on the bottom of the barrel flat or the top of the frame flat; they'll tell you a lot about the critical dimensions. Sounds like a beyootiful piece! I've always thought a drilling or over-under rifle/shotgun with a .22 LR barrel buried in the rib (yeah, they DID make them!) would be the LAST gun I'd ever need. Could even hide a Walther TPH under the butt-trap!

floodgate

[Bret4207]

This brings up a question. I'm restoring a William Parkhurst Belgian 16 ga sxs hammer gun. Now, somewhere in my collection of gun books I have a large article on Belgian Proof Marks, Gun Digest I think. The barrels appear to be fluid steel with a chemically applied damascus finish. What is the current thought on older shotguns like this? It used to be black powder only and light loads at that. Now I hear of guys using low pressure smokeless powders in standard loadings. Anyone up on this? I'm fairly sure it's from the teens or 20's.

[Wayne Smith]

At this point I'm thinking using BP only. Brass shotgun shells, I haven't checked but I'm pretty sure the shotgun barrel is open, designed for slugs. The rear sight is permenantly mounted on the rib, no fancy drop down sights on this one. I'm betting it's intended for rifle long shots and shotgun for the close in, charging shot.

Know anybody that makes a mold for 16 ga. slugs?

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out after Church. Surprisingly, there are no other marks other than a number on the rib under the forearm. No proof marks at all.

[Wayne Smith]

Chamber cast results:

Base Diameter = .523"

Case Length = 1.87" = 47.55mm

Neck Diameter = .450" = 11.44mm

Rim Diameter = .617"

Rim thickness = .096"

The last two were measured directly from the gun. I don't know how sloppy the actual brass is to the chamber measurement, but the closest I can come to identifying this is:

10.5x47R

Donnelly and Towsley say that I can make them from .43 Spanish Remington, but have to turn the rim to the nominal .591" "and back chamfer", whatever that is. It it requires a lathe I don't have one.

It takes a 276 gr lead bullet of .419" and I don't have a .40 mold that light, just the RCBS 40-400.

It's gotta go to my gunsmith to get the detent that holds the locking lever closed, anyway. I'll have to look around to see if there are any other options to make brass. Donnelly and Towsley are quite limited in their imaginations,and more brass is available now than was when they wrote the book.

[Blackwater]

Wayne, I don't have a book here now to check, but that doesn't sound too far off from the .50/70, though that's unlikely to be the actual chambering due to its birthplace. Just thought you may want to check out the new Starline .50/110 brass if it's a reasonable fit. Should save you some $$$ if it'll fit. FWIW??? I can send you one of my Berdan primed 32 ga. brass shotshells, too, if you want to try it for kicks and giggles. I bought 100 for posterity, and one won't be a problem. PM me your snail mail addy if you want one, and I'll send it on to you.

[Blackwater]

Well, Wayne, this is such an interesting little gun that you actually got me off my sorry butt, and I went and retrieved the 32 ga. brass shotshells and my calipers. Here's the measurements:

Length: 2.437"
Rim dia: .630"
Case body just in front of rim: .567"
Rim thickness is really hard to measure due to shape (rounded) but is no less than .055" and no more than .062"

Can't see your specs as I type this in, and can't remember, so don't know how close/far this is from what you have, but if it WILL work, PM me your addy and I'll send a couple on to you.

BTW, a buddy who once had a number of old BPE doubles used the caming action of some of his guns to resize the case IN the gun. With thin brass, this can work. Don't know how much use that may or may not be to you, but FWIW again.

[drinks]

Wayne;
A quick look shows 2 possibilities, .45-70 brass would be a bit small at the head, but the aoto parts store sells stainless steel trim tape that can be cut in narrow strips and wrapped around the case at the rim to help keep a head-base seperation from happening, the thin case will expand ahead of the case -base juncture, rather than at the juncture.
The only other case that would be the correct head diameter is the Mauser A, flanged case from Bell, if it is still available.

[Mk42gunner]

Wayne, you might check 348 Winchester brass, I know that Buffalo arms reforms 348 to 43 Spanish. If it will work I have a bag or two of new 348 brass that i can send you.
Robert

[ammohead]

Wayne,

Measuring a 348 win case gives me a head dia of .545, rim dia .600 and rim thickness .067 and about 2.25 length.

ammohead

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks, guys. I'm gonna take this slow. I've got Rudi Prusok and the German Gun Collectors Organization working on it too. A lady from FFF (Family, Friends, and Firearms) found a auction of a pinfire revolver signed C I Kuhner of Stettin. This suggests to me that a Kuhner family were gunmakers in Stettin. Rudi informed me that proof were required in 1891 in Stettin, so this gun certainly dates prior to that.

I'm gonna have my gunsmith go over it in detail and repair only those things that are original. I'll also have him confirm my measurements of the cast I made to confirm my impression of caliber. Once that's done I'll take it down to Ken Hurst, engraver and friend, to have him look it over as well. I fully trust Ken's information and knowledge.

In the meantime, once I have the caliber confirmed, I'll work on making cases for it. I was refered to Mr. Meyer of the German Gun Collectors Association for information about making cases, and I've e-mailed him today. I want to avoid as many false starts as possible, as money isn't unlimited.

Once I get some picts and figure out how to post them I will.

[HTRN]

"43 Spanish" seems to fit as to rim diameter dimensions. Unfortunatly, the rim thickness isn't quite enough.

Nominally:
.629 max rim diameter
.085 max rim thickness.
.5215 max base diameter.

BTW, Bell is out of the commercial brass business - strictly military contract these days.

Another option is 11mm Mauser brass - and this is certainly available from the likes of Bertram... Admittedly, the rim diameter and the base diameter is a bit on the small side, but the rim thickness is almost perfect.

.590 max rim diameter
.093 max rim thickness
.515 max base diameter.

Oh, I would try Dieter Horneber, he makes alot of really oddball brass I've never heard of(and in fact, isn't even listed in "the blue book"). He may actually make the correct brass for your gun.


HTRN

[Wayne Smith]

Steve Meyer tells me that the 10.5x47 was a very popular cartridge back in the day in Germany, and that the problem is that there were multiple chambers cut for it. Kinda like some of our .40 black powder cartridges, I guess. He says that the 43 Mauser is the parent cartridge, and it is avaliable, albeit somewhat expensive.

I understand from reading in various places, including here, that Redding or CH4D are the current choices for sending a chamber cast to have dies cut? That RCBS has essentially priced itself out of the business. I'm gonna have to start saving my pennies, over $100 for dies I'm expecting. Then the brass, and a mold or two. And still have to feed the shotgun barrel. Have to talk to LOML and see if we can free up some money after Christmas.

[Buckshot]

............Wayne, RCBS had announced they would no longer be offering cutom die work. This was after Blount sold them. Re: the 16ga bbl, Graf & Son carries the Mag-Tech (Brazilian) brass shotshells. These are setup for boxer type large pistol primers. They're 2.4" long.

As for the rifle barrel, wait until you get a chamber cast of what you actually have to work with. All you may need is a neck sizer or a couple simple tools. Other common dies may do the job. For my 577-450 I necksize only and use a shortened Lee 458 Win Mag size die for the job.

Before I mad a size die for the 11.15x42R Brazilian Comblain I used a universal decapper body and a 43 Spanish and 45 ACP sizer die for initial sizing to get them into the chamber. Once fire formed, the 45 ACP sizer took care of things.

.................Buckshot