Alternatives to Corbin Die$ ???

[BulletFactory]

I was hoping to get into swaging, but when I started looking at the price list at Corbin, I was left with the same feeling you get when you get a speeding ticket or having to pay your taxes.

Is there a better source for dies that do a good job, yet dont cost more than a rifle?

I would buy a lathe and learn how to use it for less cost than it would cost for just the jacked die. They wanted almost 1400$ for it ! !

[Artful]

No precision dies come cheap

BT Sniper on the forum makes dies but I don't know his pricing for what it is you want - might PM him.

[Pipefitter]

Go ahead and buy the lathe, then keep track of all of the time it takes you to make a core swage die. Add the time it takes to make a core seat die. Then reset the timer and make about 5 or 6 point form dies, because it will take you at least that many tries to get it "right".
Now divide up the total number of hours by what you would expect to be paid as an "experienced machinist".If it comes close to $1400 I will buy your set of dies if they are superior to the Corbin dies that I already own.

If you want quality you had better be prepared to pay for it, otherwise I suggest you go buy all your tools from Harbor Freight.

Why don't you ask BTSniper how much time it took him to figure out how to make a point form die for just one caliber?

Now that I am done ranting, maybe you should rethink what goes into a set of dies that will last 3 or 4 lifetimes of shooting quality swaged bullets......

[BulletFactory]

Thanks. I reload to save money. Otherwise, I really couldnt afford to shoot often enough to bother. The tooling costs to make some 30 caliber rounds should't take 10 years to recoup.

[dragon813gt]

ROI isn't a product of time. It's a product of rounds down range. If you shoot a lot your ROI may come quickly. I doubt I would ever get my money back on any rifle swage dies outside of 22cal. Now pistol bullets are a different story.

I'm not a machinist so the costs and time frames have always baffled me when it comes to swage dies. I figured most of the process would be done by CNC. I'm guessing most of it can't be done by CNC. Or the market is just to small to warrant investing in the tooling to do it.

[BulletFactory]

Maybe the market would be bigger if they werent charging about a thousand dollars a pound for steel.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...
I would buy a lathe and learn how to use it for less cost than it would cost for just the jacked die. They wanted almost 1400$ for it !

If there were $100 swage dies out there for sale, I bet the Market for buying them would be YUUUUUUGE !!!!!!!!
I think it's an opportunity for someone like you, who could pick up the machining skills lickety split.
Turn a dollar's worth of steel into $100...can't loose...

[BulletFactory]

Is that why most things that used to be made in USA are now made in China?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I was just offering you some advice.
China?
I don't think there was anything in my comment as to "why" swage dies are spendy?

...and, have you ever seen any reloading dies that were made in China?

[GerryM]

Bt snipers are less so is Larry Blackmons dies. Check them out, Richard corbin dies are very good also and reasonable.
I think what you are looking for is a set that works with a standard reloading press.
Those would be Blackmon or BT sniper dies

[BulletFactory]

Thanks Gerry.

China hasnt started making reloading tools yet, I've never seen them. But LEE has made a very profitable name for themselves by making quality dies and presses at affordable prices. I will shoot them an email and hopefully they will get on the ball here.

[BulletFactory]

Email sent as follows.

Swaging Dies

I have been using LEE equipment for many years now, and I am very satisfied with your product line. No complaints. Recently, I have gotten interested in bullet swaging. ie., Using a series of dies to create a lead core, and a copper jacket from strip or tubing, then inserting the lead core in the jacket, then forming a point to create a bullet. Well, the pricing on some of these dies is , inexcusable at best. This is where the LEE Precision company shines!. Making quality dies at affordable prices. I was REALLY hoping that you could start making dies that would produce a lead core copper jacketed round that wouldnt cost about 2500 to 3 thousand dollars in tooling costs before a single bullet could be made by your customers. For instance, a jacket forming die in .30 caliber is going for just under 1400 dollars. I have included a link below to one of the swaging die manufacturers price lists, so that you could get a feel for how deep these people are gouging our wallets. I know you can do better. Thanks for your time, and consideration.

[country gent]

You want real sticker shock Look at a set of Rorsharch carbide swaging dies and equipment to use them. Dies for jacket bullets are almost a dark sience in desighn, Skill and labor involved. Its not like a simple sizing die for cast bullets as the spring memory of jackets ( this can vary from lot to lot) the lead cores, pressures forming and seating cores into jackets, "squirt" holes sizes, and actual forming dies all vary and have an affect. The set up I was looking at for 308 168 boattails in carbide was around $6000.00 at the time. The time making special tooling, machining, hardening, polishing and the tolerences that need to be held on dia radiouses, ogives, and between moving parts makes the work extremely painstaking. Holding .005 on the lathe is not to hard, Holding .0005 thru machining heat treat and finishing polishing is pretty touchy. The set ups for doing this get pretty involved with forming and operating the ejector pin along with room for your hand to get in there.

[dragon813gt]

You won't see Lee stepping into this market. I like Lee tools and have a lot of them. But the tolerances are to tight when it comes to swaging dies. Lee is in it to make money. It would cost them a lot in R&D before they made a single cent. And remember, they are a company that's built for production. They aren't a one man shop. The profit margins would have to be right for them to even consider it.

I can see the bashing threads already. People don't read the directions for a sizing die. Just imagine w/ swaging dies. And Lee'e instructions definitely aren't their strong point.

Swaging equipment cost is still pretty marginal IMO. After you have it you still need a source for components. Do you plan on drawing your own jackets? What about extruding lead wire? The list keeps going. You'll want pure lead, not free wheel weights. Jackets aren't cheap by any means. Lead wire isn't cheap. Sure you can cast cores but that takes more time than cutting wire.

If you can't tell I've run this through my head a lot. I'm a self sufficient type of guy so I'd want to be able to make my own jackets and extrude the wire. Costs are really high when you get to this level. Not to mention I can barely find the time to reload ammo w/ Hornady bullets that I bought :laugh:

[BulletFactory]

I wanted to make my own jackets from copper tubing, and my own cores from wire or cast from a mold.

[Faret]

What is it on this section of the forum? Somebody wants to make their own because they got an itch but don't have any cream to put on it$ and some individuals just ream their butt for it! I made my own dies too. Did it take me awhile YES! Made my own press too! Did it cost alot YES. Would I do it all over again YES! Thanks goes out to all of the people that helped me. If you ain't got the $ but got the time make it yourself like I did. You will find out why they charge what they do but you can also make them a lot cheaper.

[BulletFactory]

Thanks Faret. I do have the time, just not a whole lot of money. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed either, but I get by, and God has done a good job at making sure I dont hurt myself in the meantime. It took all year to build my AR, I'm almost done.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

You might be better off contacting CH4D, instead of Lee.

[Bent Ramrod]

This notion comes up every couple years or so. If you have the time and patience, go through the back pages of this section and see how many people made ringing pronouncements that the bullet die manufacturers were a sinister cabal determined to gouge handloaders with the insane prices they charged for their swaging dies. They then announced that they would go into their inner sanctums and emerge with a line of high-grade, affordable swaging dies that would drive the evil gougers out of business.

Most of these people were never heard from again. A few made a couple dies and (perhaps wisely) stopped there. A couple more made a bunch of dies and garnered a plethora of bad reviews from their customers, mostly centered on quality. The only one who has proved viable is BT Sniper, and he never set out to make cheap dies, just good ones.

The Corbin Brothers originally envisioned themselves as the General Motors of bullet swage dies. They couldn't understand how these little shops like Frantzen, Smith et al, were content to make a die set once in a while, by hand, when the market could be served by modern mass production and volume markdowns. Looks like they found out--they're as far behind, and as expensive per copy, as any of the small shops they hoped to replace. Most of those small shops died with their proprietors. Nobody seems willing (or able) to take up the slack.

RCBS Inc., was originally the Rock Chuck Bullet Swage Company, making bullet swage dies. After ten years, they found that there was no money in producing these items. Now they make everything for the handloader except bullet swaging dies. You'd think a giant conglomerate could do so, but apparently not.

Lee Precision knocked the floor out of a lot of formerly expensive loading equipment, notably boolit moulds and carbide case sizing dies. But they've not tried to make cheap bullet swage dies. Maybe they know something.

The idea of dies being made in China is interesting. China's hole card is a huge supply of human labor, which is the key to making bullet swage dies. They can make some good stuff, if properly motivated. Wonder how much they would cost?

Tool and die makers are not the same as machinists, even though they use the same equipment. Machinists have their thousandths, and die makers their ten-thousandths. They don't work cheap, and they have to eat their mistakes, which can amount to days and weeks of work. By all means, try making a few--you may wind up wondering how they sell them so cheap!

[BulletFactory]

I hope China puts these people out of business. I am starting to understand why so many gun owners avoid forums altogether however.