Alternatives to Corbin Die$ ???

[B. Lumpkin]

I hope china DOES NOT put American manufacturers and swage makers out of business. Wishing a manufacturer to go out of business just because you can't afford their product is no way to act!

I have purchased expensive dies (Detsch) and they are phenomenal. I have purchased a $250 swaging set up and it is doo doo. You absolutely get what you pay for.

[dragon813gt]

I hope China puts these people out of business. I am starting to understand why so many gun owners avoid forums altogether however.

Why would you hope for that? I agree that some responses are ridiculous. Apparently people think it's okay to talk down to someone. But wishing current manufacturers would go out of business is a bit much.

[B. Lumpkin]

I'd say a 500 pack of your preferred jacketed bullets would be better than a set of swage dies. The dies are expensive, but the accoutrement needed to swage bullets adds up quick as well.

[BulletFactory]

I guess it is a bit much. On the other hand, if someone prices themselves out of business, it's pretty hard to feel bad for them. End result would be affordable dies. It gets pretty hard to argue against. I'd go as high as 200-250 for a press, and 500 for a complete set of dies that would swage cores, form tubing jackets, and assemble them. Anything else is theivery. This isnt exactly a new technology, and the businesses have been established and paid for, for many years. CNC stuff is getting cheaper and cheaper as time goes on.

[JimB..]

We all have interests that we can't afford, such is life.

Shooting is a small hobby that is shrinking. Casting is a tiny hobby within shooting. Swaging is a tiny hobby within (or tangential to) casting. It's fine to think that scale will bring costs down, but there is no scale to be had.

[dragon813gt]

BT Sniper would be a good one to talk to about costs. I'm sure he doesn't like being called a thief because of his costs. W/out actually producing the dies you can't really comment on manufacturing costs, let alone overhead.

Basic economics also says you can charge more for small volume items. Since you aren't selling as many your profit margin needs to be higher.

[BulletFactory]

I havent seen BT Snipers prices, so Im not judging him. I tried to find them but they weren't available anywhere.

[R.Ph. 380]

I hope China puts these people out of business. I am starting to understand why so many gun owners avoid forums altogether however.

So, your inability to afford a necessary and available tool to enhance your enjoyment is somehow the fault of the innovators and developers of an entire industry. Well, aren't we the important member of society? The "gouging" you reference is at best a recovery of investment and time required to develop a process. If you think you can do better, why aren't you already out there with something better than a hobby lathe,and believe me, what's needed costs much more than 500.00 from Harbor Freight. Used, they cost more than that "2500 to 3 thousand" you decry. That's just to take that one pound of steel and make it into the basic starting point for a die. After that, the time and work to turn it into a finished die takes thousands more. Sure you get economies of scale, and that's exactly what Brian does with his process. But I bet that if he added it up, he has a capital investment of over $200,000.00 just to provide that 30 caliber set of dies I bought last year for around $1200.00. Friend, I saved for 3 years to buy that one set.

Bulletfactory, you sound like that group that was protesting the "1%ers" a couple of years ago, wanting everything given to you on a gilded platter so it won't have even any intrinsic value much less ROI for the innovator. Did you forget what this entire country was built on? The freedom for anyone to compete and succeed if they had a superior product? Go Get out there and MAKE a quality competing product, THEN and only then should you come into a community like this and call it's innovators "gougers". I for one am DONE with reading and listening to your whining and complaining about the true developers of our hobbies and enjoyment. There are Doers and there are complainers. You, sir belong in the second group. Since you detest our forums so much, maybe you should keep your disparaging comments to yourself and try to do better. Ya' Think?

Bill

Apologies to the moderators, I just get so tired of everyone yelling how they can do so much better and cheaper with no basis in fact.

[BulletFactory]

If I were a millionaire I would never pay that price. BTW, my AR cost me about 2900$, before I got the ACOG, and the M1A was about $2300. Between the sights and trigger, my M&P was 1,000. I dont have a problem paying for it if it's worth it, but this passes the point of ridiculousness.

Wow, all that coming from an NRA life member? N egotiate R ights A way. THe NRA is negligent in reversing gun law, while promoting CCW contracts in states that were formerly in line with the constitution.

[dragon813gt]

I dont have a problem paying for it if it's worth it, but this passes the point of ridiculousness.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Do you know how much the tooling costs and how much time it takes to make one set of dies? I'm assuming no, otherwise you would see that it's not ridiculous. A manufacturer makes a product and you have to choice to buy or not. It's really that simple.

If swaging dies were easy to make cheaply someone would be doing it by now. There is a market for it. But many have tried and failed to make a go at it. This says a lot about this business model.

[Zbench]

Bulletfactory,

It's clear to me you've never run your own business. Baked into the $1400 price that you seem to find so objectionable:

Pay and benefits for 5 employees
Overhead costs of a building, taxes on same
Precision CNC equipment
Raw material costs
Paying Federal, State and local govt taxes on everything, including the ability to be in business
Compliance with OSHA rules and regulations

When you consider the above, I personally think David's product is too cheap. The other thing to consider is his stuff is first class and first rate plus comes with his guarantee that if there is a problem, he will fix it (excepting operator stupidity)

There is NO WAY anyone in business can compete with a guy making dies on the side in his basement with home brewed tools. That's just the reality.

Finally, if you are getting into swaging to save money, please reconsider. There is nothing cheap about swaging, period.

[uncle dino]

Good, quality dies are worth every penny. I have made my own dies and punches for emergency or prototype work to experiment. Once I have an idea worked out...I order its replacement from experienced diemaker. No comparison. D

[BulletFactory]

I dont have a problem with making a profit, I have a problem with making a killing.

[just bill]

I havent seen BT Snipers prices, so Im not judging him. I tried to find them but they weren't available anywhere.

obviously, you don't this forum. Just look in the vendor section. All you need to know about B.T.

[BulletFactory]

1500 for a complete set is a little high, but is certainly doable. 1400 for one die plus this plus that and the other, is bullhonkey.

This would have been easier, if instead of putting me on the defensive with condescension, someone could have just said what just bill did, in referencing me to the vendor section.

[MarkP]

I dont have a problem with making a profit, I have a problem with making a killing.

Contact Hillman Extrusion Tool Company in Lincoln MI; they provided tooling to the commercial bullet / ammo industry.

[runfiverun]

it depends on what you want.
if you get the set up for a rnfp with a flat nose then you buy that.
if you later decide to add a hollow point or a deep hollow point the maker probably doesn't have a bin full of those punches gathering dust and wasting his lathe time.
so he has to walk out to his shop, turn everything on, find the steel he hopefully has on hand, center everything up and cut a punch then taper the nose shape.
then refigure everything and do it again.
since he is out there he might as well finish off another 3 hours of his day making someone else a custom cut piece for another die set.

[country gent]

You say the rate of return isnt there for you on the quality dies, What about the rate of return on the gentleman making thems investment? A Good Lathe, mill. tooling, this can be more than the actual machines. Set up costs, experience and skills learned over years of time doing machining work. Hes not supposed to expect a fair ROI? LAst cnc machining center the plant bought was $70,000.00 with out gages, jigs,fixtures, and tooling. Dedicated equipment is quicker and easier but costs are much higher. Your not paying for the pieces of steel but the Mans knowledge experience skills and ability. Along with the machines and tooling thats setting there in his shop.

[mckenziedrums]

Folks, you're wasting your time trying to reason with him. He brags about an acog but thinks the markup on quality die work is "making a killing".

The best quality budget friendly option is Larry Blackmon. You'll spend about 700 to get a press and single caliber. I'd recommend you just spend your money on bulk bullets if you don't see the value proposition in quality tooling that lasts a lifetime.

[BulletFactory]

More condescension...He must be an idiot for charging a fair price. Why arent we bashing him ????