Paper Patching the RCBS 165 Silhouette Boolit in .308 Winchester

[MUSTANG]

ShooterAZ:

What MOA for your RCBS 165 in 30-06 shot at 100 Yards? I ask about 100 yards because some are shooting at 25 yds, 50 yds, and extrapolating 100 yard groups; groups often do not hold at distance when tested against their 25/50 Yd efforts. My goal is for much longer ranges, so once a 100 Yd solution is achieved, then it's time for 200Yd, 300Yd, ...?

The longer case neck on a 30-06 and different throat may work differently compared to a .308 Winchester.

[ShooterAZ]

Mustang,

I started out with IMR 4064 powder at first, and was getting 4-6" groups from a bench at 100yds with a Rem 700, Leupold 4x14 scope. This rifle is capable of one 3/8-1/2" groups at the same distance with many of my jacketed loads. I switched to BLC-2 and was able to cut the groups roughly in half to 2-1/2 to 3" +/-. I was pretty happy with that considering that I'm just getting started paper patching. I think I can still do better with more load development. I have a lot of other powders that I want to try too. I tried the same loads in my 1903 Springfield that normally loves the 165 Sil (unpatched), and at quite a bit lower velocity like around 18-1900fps. My results were somewhat disappointing in the 1903. I have have a lot of different 30 cal molds to work with. I think I will work with the 311299 and 311407 next.

[oldblinddog]

I have had pretty decent results with the RCBS 165 Sil in the 30-06. Sized to .308, two wraps wet on my table with green bar printer paper, lubed with BAC and final size to .311.

Any target pics?

Have you tried any slower powders such as 4831 or RL22?

[ShooterAZ]

Sorry no target pics. I have not tried any 4831 or RL22 yet, but I do have both of them on hand.

[Digital Dan]

You gentlemen will find that powders on the slow side of burn rates for a given cartridge are your friend.

[oldblinddog]

^^^^^
This

[ShooterAZ]

Where does one find data for these slow burners? I do have IMR4831 and RL22. The slowest powder my manuals list for 7.62x54R is Varget. My Mosin Nagant is up next with a PP 170 gr. boolit.

[oldblinddog]

One method is fill the case to the base of the neck, weigh this charge and then back off by 10% for a starting load. The really slow powders won't develop enough pressure to get you into trouble. Or you can use data for a similar weight j-bullet if that is available and then work up/down as necessary. One resource I find valuable is a DuPont handout with loads for every IMR powder in each cartridge listed along with the associated pressures.

Attachment 183920

You can make a usable load with whatever powder you have on hand. It may not be the best load, but it is usable. All data should be this way so that I/we can decide what is best.

[ShooterAZ]

That reminds me of something that my late uncle used to do. He had an old Win M70 in .270. He would pour H4831 into the case with a spoon and funnel until it reached the bottom of the neck, then seat the bullets. He never even weighed the charges. He took a lot of deer & elk with that gun/load.

[oldblinddog]

Yes, I have heard that load before also. But, with bigger cases(7mm Rem Mag, .338 Win Mag) you can't do that because now you are in the working range of the powder. It has to be slow powder/small case. A good example is the thread on 4831 in the .30-30:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...gton-788-30-30

[MUSTANG]

2 January 2017:

Loaded 10 rounds using the RCBS 165 Boolit, 22.7 BHN, sized to .302 , and Patched with 9lb Onion Skin Paper. Still using the 45 Grains of W760 as the standardized powder for testing at this time. After the Patches were dry, I measured diameter and they measured from .307 to .3075 when dry. Figured this was going to be a problem area; but took them to the range to test anyway. Following is the results:



Ten rounds fired; but only 5 hit the target. I suspected that I was not achieving full burn based on the lower recoil and sound for each shot. Looking at the target; it appears that the inconsistent pressure generated each shot may have resulted in stringing of shots. Not having the impact locations for the 5 missing shots makes drawing conclusions risky; but there does seem to be good left-right alignment; and the group is stringing up and down; not flying wildly across the target based on the sight picture location.

Looks like I may have a few weeks to deliberate and decide which direction to go with next testing sequences. The access road to the range I use has become unusable, even with our 4 wheel drive jeep. Got stuck on the road at the range and had to dig out of the snow, which is now deep enough that in places I am high centering the jeep. The range road is not plowed, I do not have a snow plow for the jeep; and I am unwilling to haul our tractor and snow blower up the mountain to clean the road to the range as I feel that is too dangerous/risky for me.

I'll be looking at other options for range use here in the Montana House; or have to wait until April when the melt off should be complete. If I settle on another range for this winter; I'll continue the effort this winter, if not I'll resume in the spring.

[Old Coot]

I do not understand why you are sizing your finished bullets so small. It has been my experience that the largest bullet (patched or plain) that will fill a FIRED and un-sized case neck gives the best accuracy.

I would not worry about raising pressures if your barrel is .308 in across the groves. You are shooting a lead bullet. The bullet will size down without raising pressures. Even factory ammo runs around .312" .
Brodie

[MUSTANG]

13 January 2017. We joined another private range club last week that keeps their access road plowed so my Wife and I can now get out to shoot during the heavier snow periods of winter. Unfortunately this range is more than twice the distance from the house so we will have fewer shooting opportunities as short term jaunts and windows of opportunity may not support going to this range.

Went got out to the range despite the -7° temps. Today's effort utilized the same alloy (96-3-1) as used in previous tests, but it is softer because these boolits are softer at 9.8 BHN as they were air cooled instead of water dropped to harden. Powder charge of 45 Grains W760 powder remained the same as previous tests.

During this period I fired four (4) strings of five (5) rounds of each paper patch type at 100Yards. Bitter cold with light wind coming into the face could have impact on group sizes, but we were bundled well and wearing balacavas' to reduce cold impact o shooting. It was cold enough that brass ejected after the shot hitting the deck melted the light snow on the ground and turned it into thick ice on the brass. After each 5 shot string, I ran a brass cleaning brush through the barrel to ensure a "Clean Barrel" for starting each paper patch type test of the day. Group sizes were:

Parchment 7.089 MOA
Onion Skin 2.363 MOA
Tracing 5.431 MOA
Vellum 5.629 MOA


A composite pic of the groups (Click to open the picture of the Groups):




Will keep the data, but as we progress may have to re-shoot some of these and other variants to validate data, particularly when using 5 shot vs 10 shot test groups.

Strange that the Onion Skin performed much better than the Costco Parchment Paper. During previous tests the Costco Parchment paper achieved a 10 Round group at 3.137 MOA; and the Onion Skin Paper had 5 of 10 rounds miss the target and the remaining 5 rounds grouped at 5.773. Tremendous improvement for the Onion Skin paper patch; have to see if it can achieve similar performance in 10 round strings.

Some of the readers of this Thread have commented that a "Softer Bullet" is needed and will perform better. Not sure the data collected bears that thought out as results seem mixed with the limited data collected to date (see below), but we'll see as we progress.


Paper Patch - 22.7 BHN (10Rds) - 9.8 BHN (5Rds)
Onion Skin - 5.773 (5 missed Target) - 2.363
Parchment - 3.137 - 7.089
Tracing - 6.306 - 5.431
Vellum - 3.948 - 5.629


We may be able to interpret more as we collect more data; but there is a faint glimmer in the data above. It seems the harder/stronger papers (parchment and vellum) may perform better with harder oolits; but the softer boolits seem to be performing better with the softer/weaker(?) papers (Tracing and Onion Skin).

Outside the scope of this thread; aftertesting the paper patched loads above, I also shot 8 rounds of the softer 9.8 BHN boolits that had been checked with aluminum gas check, Tumble Coated in HF Red Powder Coat Powder and baked for 20 minutes at 400°, then air cooled. These 8 rounds with the same 45 Grain W760 Load achieved 2.481 MOA.

[MUSTANG]

26 Jan 2017:

Back to the range today. Results replicated performance experienced on 6 Dec 2016 (Post #23). Surprisingly both this test sequence and the post #23 resulted in a 3.137 MOA group each at 100 Yards. Steps for preparing today's test boolits were:

• 9.8 BHN
• Sized RCBS 165 Sil to .308
• Wrapped boolit using Vellum Drafting Paper ~ 0.029 thickness, dipped in egg white/water mixture, two wraps.
• Rolled wrapped boolit in Cigarette Roller 10 Turns.
• Air dried for ~ 24 hours. As wrapped ~ 0.319".
• Sprayed wrapped boolits lightly with Teflon spray.
• Sized boolits in 0.311 Lee die.
• Sized boolits in 0.308 Lee die. Boolits measured 0.309 after sizing.
• Loaded in neck sized with 0.308 RCBS neck expander plug. 45 Grains W760 Powder.
  
  

[bearcove]

Read the first Sticky. DO what he says. You seem to always add unwanted variables. Wrong size, wrong paper, glue, AND a poor choice of bullet design to work with. Not meaning to be rude but you are set in your ways, and I don't think it's gonna get you there. Spend $80 and buy something like this.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=35-265P-D.png

[bearcove]

I don't want to be negative about what you are doing, you have put a lot of work into this and posted a lot of detailed info. I think you will get limited results from a bullet that is sized down to be patched. I only work with bullets that start out at the dia I want ie .001 over bore. Only size after they are patched to compress the paper a bit, with a paste wax for wood. Mine is old and high VOC and dries hard. It makes a hard jacket without soaking into the paper.

The old ideas were a starting place for where we are now.

I have a bunch of 16lb tractor feed paper if you want some Pm me and I'll send you some, It is the right thickness and strength for this.

[OverMax]

With all due respect:
deja vu.

[bearcove]

I want to say Mustang has been very thorough in his work, but I fear his choice of projectile may be dated. I can not fault that because I am now studying the work of a man named Howe.

[OverMax]

From the info I read in the Cast Pics site. It recommends the W-760_ Max> 42.0 grs with the Rcbs .308 165 gr. Silhouette.
1. 45 grain charge may be part of your problem. (to much powder for your RCBS Silhouette cast)
2. Since there is only one drive /grease band near the base of the your bullet. Try wrapping your bullet all the way up and slightly over the breaking edge of its tangent-ogive.
(I'll bet your bullet currently patched 2 wraps with the current .003 paper thickness and air dried. Calipered correctly measures near .326 dia. not .319.)

So IMHO Mustang.
Buy a Lee type push-thru resizer die. Its bore measuring >.300 or .3005 dia or order such a resizer die from Buckshot here on this C/B site.
Your Silhouette bullet when wrapped 2 full wraps with the paper your now using will air dry on its undersized .300 bullet. _at measurement >.312-or-.3125. You can shoot these P/P Silhouette's as they are in your 308 or resize to .311 if you choose to match em.

O/M Paper Wrap formula: .301 undersized 30 cal bullet. Papered wrapped twice with.002 thickness G/Bar_ .002 x 2=.004__ (x 3)= .012 overall __ .301 +.012 = .313 <this is my bullets calipered measurement time after time. I shoot them as they are in my 94 or can undersize the same patched bullets to .310 when there is a need to use. In my 1899 Savage.

[MUSTANG]

22 February 2017

Back to the range to resume the efforts on the RCBS 165 Sil. For this effort I reduced the drive bands in three steps. First reduction was from as cast to .308 in a Lee Sizer die, the 2nd step was reduction of the drive bands to .305 using an NOE sizer die, then the last reduction to .303 using an NOE sizer die. Boolit was wrapped in Costco Parchment paper, Paper Patch was ~ 2.455 inches long; and 0.59 inches wide. After patching, measured .310; sized to .309 using a Lee Sizer die; patched boolit lubed with Light coat of Lanolin (alcohol lanolin mix - Spray) on RCBS case lube pad. 45 Grains W-760 powder.

10 Round group was 3.029 MOA .



During this session I duplicated all items as described below; but used 42.4 grains of H-4895. Not a single round out of 10 hit the 18" x18" target, in fact - one of the rounds hit a target adjacent ~22 inches off the aiming point. Looks like for the current effort; H-4895 is NOT a viable choice for my application.

In response to OverMax comments in post #58 above:

I selected 45 Grains of W-760 Powder because it fills the cases to the base of the neck when dropped from my RCBS powder meter. The testing conducted by Col.E.H Harris during the 1970's on Smokeless Paper Patching for .30 Cal cast boolits settled on a charge of 50 Grains of W-760 using a 170 grain Lyman 301XXX boolit with a 17 BHN, traveling at 2700 FPS from the muzzle. Various articles on Paper Patching can be found in the NRA Pamphlet Cast Bullets by Col H.E. Harris. (See pages 75 and 93 of 144 pages in the PDF electronic copy available from numerous Internet sites).

The two directions I'll be going in the near future will be increasing (not decreasing) the Charge of W-760 to 46, 47, 48, ..? grain levels; and back to the use of Teflon Spray lubrication on the Boolits. I also in the near future will try more Onion Skin Paper in the testing.

For ALL Readers; I appreciate all commenters observations and suggestions. My answering or not answering comments in the thread is based on my thoughts (or Non-thoughts) on direct impact to my experimentation. One of the tenants of the Scientific process is developing a thesis and the testing of that thesis through experimentation. Avoiding drifting off in other directions is a risk in collecting focused data. In this thread the Thesis might be described as "Develop a Paper Patch load and load process that will result in an RCBS 165 Sil Boolit shooting MOA accuracy at 2700 feet per second". Just as Thomas Edison found a thousand ways that would not work in making a Light Bulb, we are destined to find ways that do not work in our Boolit efforts.