Working on a HP load...'Barrel Lengths Matter'

[OS OK]

I'm with you here r5r...that's why I chose to start with a modified Stick-On WW batch with minimum amt. of pewter to hit about 1.5% Sn...well, for some reason that batch hardened further by 2 BHN though I used the X-Cell worksheet Pb calculator and carefully weighed the components. I'm afraid that the Pb in the COWW's may not be exactly as advertised. Without the x-ray analysis done all I can do is assume and we know about assuming!

[45workhorse]

Even though this site is about cast bullets, if this is a last ditch protection pistol, the OP needs to not limit himself. Even purist boolet casters realize the importance of maximum bullet performance in a self-defense pistol. Speer for example makes bullets specifically designed for short barreled .38s - a 110 and a 135-grain hollow point. Trying 1960s technology like inverted HBWCs is foolish when we have modern options which are proven to work.

But it's the OP's life and family, he can make his own choice.



.

Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan.
Old tech seemed to work for them.

[OS OK]

Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan.
Old tech seemed to work for them.

I think he chimed in without reading my objectives...Also this mold is Ideals copy of Keith's SWC-HP, 1930-something vintage. "Old School...Oh Yeah!"

[OS OK]

The test today was exclusively the HP-38, quite a bit slower than the Bullseye...but, not quite slow enough evidently...The bottom row is .1'th off the max. +P load, something I keep noticing with this dang .38...it sure is a wimpy load!
No chrono work today and these casts are lead @ 5 BHN about 50 hours after smelting, no increase there yet....it was flashing material, no Sn added. Easy casting, out of 80 casts I had 2 rejects for incomplete bases, that was my fault.
The second pic. is the little bit I used to chamfer the HP's noses...it removes 1 1/2 grains of Pb.

[runfiverun]

so some worked and some didn't?

I'm waiting for the initiator tip results, I think you'll find a little something there.
you might could use a punch to add an initiator bulge to the nose.
and you could always do the split nose with some paper in the first 1/4" too.
I got lot's of ideas

[OS OK]

From...(Casting with the Lyman 358-439 HP and LOW Velocity) this picture of (Best results thus far...)results with the Bullseye @ 4.0 grains of a 4.2 max. load (prior to +P rated loads that extend to 4.5 grains) but I don't want +P ammo.
...the odd thing here is this load is with lead that cast at 7.4 BHN on cast day and rose to 8.2 in 48 hours.



A Reloaders Guide (free handout), from 2004 Alliant Powders claims that I can use up to 4.5 grains of Herco behind a 158 grain SWC lead cast and get 930 FPS at 15.8 KPSI...well, heres 4.3 grains behind these 155 grain SWC-HP's...

...5 BHN lead here also.

One of the worst results yet...I wish I knew more about why people claim slower powders work better in short barrels....frankly, I can't see the proof.

***Thus far...the best results have been the fastest powder and that was Bullseye, 4.0 grains, harder lead but shallow HP pin....can't argue with the results huh?

I'm going back to the Bullseye and going next with the chamfered ends like these and the 'initiator tips' as R5R calls them.

Stay tuned....

[OS OK]

Ok...starting over again but using the initiator tips as R5R labeled them. No taper or chamfer on the front hole...I'll let these sit until tomorrow and run them down the pipe through a couple thick layers of old beach towel...
I filled the hole to the bottom with a toothpick. This stuff is rubbery and will firm up but it stretches so it ought be adequate, we'll see?

[dubber123]

Ok...starting over again but using the initiator tips as R5R labeled them. No taper or chamfer on the front hole...I'll let these sit until tomorrow and run them down the pipe through a couple thick layers of old beach towel...
I filled the hole to the bottom with a toothpick. This stuff is rubbery and will firm up but it stretches so it ought be adequate, we'll see?

If your velocity is around 850 fps., they should look exactly like the ones I posted. See you tomorrow

[runfiverun]

glad you posted, I was wondering how things were going.
now I gotta wait too :[
I love following these little 'projects' as you guy's post them, it's just like the stuff I like to work on here and we all learn something from them.

[yondering]

One of the worst results yet...I wish I knew more about why people claim slower powders work better in short barrels....frankly, I can't see the proof.

You missed why people were advising you to use slower powder. It had nothing to do with being better in a shorter barrel; someone even pointed out (correctly) that you don't need to use different powders for different barrel lengths. The advice to use slower powder (this means slower burn rate, not slower velocity) was so that you can achieve higher velocity without exceeding pressure limits. That is true regardless whether you're using short or long barrels.

[CPL Lou]

You missed why people were advising you to use slower powder. It had nothing to do with being better in a shorter barrel; someone even pointed out (correctly) that you don't need to use different powders for different barrel lengths. The advice to use slower powder (this means slower burn rate, not slower velocity) was so that you can achieve higher velocity without exceeding pressure limits. That is true regardless whether you're using short or long barrels.

^^^ What he said.
I use Unique in my snub 38 Special and have no problem getting 863fps from my 1-7/8" barrel, using standard small pistol primers.
I like the idea of the caulk in the noses, I'll have to try that one.

CPL Lou

[Lloyd Smale]

correct answer. Full with those fast powders and your going to hit high pressures before you get top velocitys.

"I'm not satisfied with the snubby, will have to find some quicker powder I suppose,"
Try a slower powder. Generally the loads that get the most velocity in a longer barrel will get the most velocity with a short barrel length. There was a piece in Handloader magazine about 30 years ago that chrono'd different loads in various barrel lengths in a Dan Wesson .357. Eye opening, to say the least. Unique torched Bullseye, heck even H110, Blue Dot and 2400 beat the snot out of Bullseye with the heavier bullets in the short barrels.

[Lloyd Smale]

hs6 and a mag primer will get you there. Going to be a bit of muzzle flash though. Some others to try are power pistol and universal clays.

[OS OK]

You missed why people were advising you to use slower powder. It had nothing to do with being better in a shorter barrel; someone even pointed out (correctly) that you don't need to use different powders for different barrel lengths. The advice to use slower powder (this means slower burn rate, not slower velocity) was so that you can achieve higher velocity without exceeding pressure limits. That is true regardless whether you're using short or long barrels.

I've had that concept for several decades now, I get that part.

I believe that fast pistol powders need at least two inches of barrel to make full pressure.
I believe that slow pistol powders need around six inches of barrel to make full pressure.

Rifle powders need +/- nine inches of barrel to make full pressure.

'The Wizardry of Propulsion'

All of the above, I believe is...give or take a fraction of an inch. I have the technical write up on rifle powder and pressure/temp./speed/% of powder used at a given length down barrel...I've just never found a comparable write up (white paper) done on specifically pistol powders.

I believe that a snubby is marginal at best for working up pressure/speed...these faster loads you fellas have prolly put a flame out the front end and some large percentage of powder is consumed out there in front of the muzzle. That means that you had a faster, higher pressure load than you actually clocked in the snubby and if it wasn't worked up in a six inch or better barrel, it possibly could be over the top if you go by speed alone and don't limit yourselves to book values regarding maximum pressure.

All the above and the barrel and cylinder gap, fitment of cast, ignition and how you hold your mouth at any given time...all have determination in this mix...it ain't as simple as the dang speed of the powder.

charlie

[popper]

I don't do HPs. That said, your 'initiator' should help. Probably better with a deeper HP. Purpose is to prevent inward expansion. If flexible, it can aid by providing outward pressure on the Pb 'tube'. Drywall will fill the cavity and NOT be an 'initiator' as the drywall flexes when hit and you end up with a loose powder in the cavity. I presume you want expansion to dump energy in the target to limit over penetration so you don't really care if the petals break off, the base will still allow decent penetration. Try some nose down smash tests with a heavy hammer. Won't be the impact you think you should get but realistically close. You might try some Cu in the pure if you don't want the petals to break off.

[OS OK]

Dang near there! You notice the one on the left still has some filler in the nose...why didn't it open, I dunnoh?
I think I'm right at the critical point where they will work at 5 BHN and 4.0 grains of a 4.2 Max. grains of Bullseye...but...I have to admit that the 'initiator tip' has to be the 'big game changer' today. I think from now on the 'IT' will be standard fare though.

Next...perhaps the 4.2 grains of Bullseye...or maybe try using small magnum primers for a hotter ignition?
These were the shallow pin version for the .38 Special...I wonder if they will open up the deep pin version for the .357 Mag?

Two of these lost weight, one lost .1'th and .3'ths ...not much at all I think.

One new fact...the cylinder gap to barrel is .006"...not too bad I suppose.

Okay...I'm open for comments/suggestions...whatcha got?

PS...I'm not going to worry about speed until I can get 100% cooperation...then I'll load that particular recipe and run it across the chrony and another batch for a 30' target group test.

[dubber123]

Post #31 regarding cavity filler... Also your velocity is a bit too low. Either stand on the Bullseye a bit, which you are low on in charge weight currently, or go to Power Pistol in an appropriate charge is my suggestion. If you don't want to go +P that's fine, but less than full standard loadings when looking for expansion don't make sense to me either. I used LBT Blue soft boolit lube to plug mine, it might matter to have a softer filler, I don't know. My snub loads break 850 fps. and I am guessing yours are a good 80 fps. slower, and that matters. I am glad you are on the right track, keep at it.

[NavyVet1959]

Have you considered loading each round with 2 lighter wadcutter bullets stacked on top of each other? You might not get a lot of expansion, but unless they enter exactly the same place, you'll get twice the damage of a single bullet.

Personally, I don't have a problem with overpenetration, so I usually have a 10mm with 216gr WFN loads.



According to Underwood, their testing gave over 50" of penetration in ballistic gel with this loading. Not sure how much *over* since he has yet to set enough gel on a table to be able to catch one.

[OS OK]

Never tried that before...I'm having too much fun and learning sooo much just playing around with all the variables in these old school Keith designs.

[NavyVet1959]

Never tried that before...I'm having too much fun and learning sooo much just playing around with all the variables in these old school Keith designs.

Depends upon what you are trying to achieve -- it might work for your needs.

Another option might be to set yourself up an alarm that you can activate from anywhere in the house and tell everyone else that if they hear that alarm, hit the floor because bullets might be flying at around center-of-mass level.