Failure!!!

[OS OK]

Verry true, it's disappointing to recover them and discover them looking pristine...gotta heat them up to max velocity if you want expansion.

[Ithaca Gunner]

NOE 434-235-RF HP 216gr. GC HP boolit.

[Petrol & Powder]

Bullet expansion is influenced by multiple factors, not the least of which include what it impacts and how fast was it going.

Again, don't get all wrapped around the axle when looking at spent bullets. A perfect mushroomed hollowpoint is a great marketing tool and they look cool in magazine ads but the final appearance of a bullet has little to do with anything important. Sure, it's nice to dump that energy into the target and it's equally as nice to expand the permanent wound cavity to some size larger than the initial bullet diameter but that final shape is only part of the story.

We can debate for hours (and others have) about: two holes are better than one, energy transfer, penetration and over penetration, how reliably a HP expands, at what velocity will it expand, will it defeat intermediate barriers, blah, blah, blah.....


The ultimate goal in SD use of force involving a firearm is to stop the attack. We don't care if the bad guy dies, lives, is fine but stops his attack, etc. We just want him to stop trying to hurt us.

Comments about head shots to insure the attacker goes to the morgue would be great fodder for a plaintiff's attorney in a civil suit after a shooting, regardless of whether or not the shooting was justified.


Nobody cares if the bullet expands or not or how perfect the mushroomed bullet appeared after the fact.


A bullet that expands and stops in the attacker may be preferable to one that travels through the attacker but at that point the defenders primary concern is stopping the attack.

If someone is charging you with a machete and all you have is a 9mm pistol loaded with round nose FMJ bullets and no avenue of escape, you're still going to shoot that person in an attempt to survive. Over penetration may be a problem but it's not the immediate problem.

[shoot-n-lead]

I revisited this, this morning...bumped the load up .5 gr or about 50fps...and got this repeated result. They all looked very similar to this one and all were within 18grs of the 200gr starting weight...all but one were within 3grs...had one that was 18grs under.

But, I am still going to play with the cast load.

[OS OK]

So, IIRCly now you are around 950 FPS and prolly 9 BHN or a tad less? Were those other mushrooms bent back over the body of the cast like this one? You might be able to drop that .5 increase a couple tenths...just wondering?

One of the fellas suggested filling the HP with silicone or some such soft sealant and testing through layers of denim...I think I'll rig that in front of my test pipe and try that too with the .38 Special.

I tried using 4.8 grains of Unique instead of the Bullseye and got worse results in speed...my 1 7/8's snubby just ain't long enough to get a complete burn so I'm back to the Bullseye at the max of 4.2 grains for these next tests.

I noticed that the test barrel in the load book was a 4" bbl. and they had 5.0 grains of Unique as the max load for the 168 grain SWC...I divided the FPS they recorded of 860 FPS by the 5.0 grains of Unique and came up with an arbitrary number of 172 FPS/ grain of powder...a sort of horsepower rating in my mind that represents after a fashion the rated pressure of that load in that 4" barrel.

Now when I divide the 645 FPS I got out of the 4.8 grain load of Unique I tested, I get 134 FPS/ grain of powder in my 1 7/8" barrel...I think of that as the horsepower I'm getting out of that combination...do you kinda see what I'm getting at? It tells me that for the time the load was actually making pressure in that short barrel it didn't have the length or the quickness to develop enough pressure to drive the cast at what should have been a higher velocity...in other words my horsepower of that load burned in a flash in front of the barrel.

The question I have for the short barrel is this...do you think I can fudge the max load up a bit to increase my FPS/grain rating so long as I don't exceed the original 172 FPS/grain they tested in the 4" barrel?

[shoot-n-lead]

So, IIRCly now you are around 950 FPS and prolly 9 BHN or a tad less? Were those other mushrooms bent back over the body of the cast like this one? You might be able to drop that .5 increase a couple tenths...just wondering?

Those pedals don't wrap around...they just open up...I think the velocity is just about perfect.

That bullet at the top of the pic is from a different test. The side view, is the side of the bullet shown from this morning. This bullet lost almost no weight...it is still right at 200grs.

[OS OK]

It opened up all it had...nothing wrong with that.

Gonna havta change the thread title from 'Failure to Success'.

[Thumbcocker]

Accurate makes a very nice 190 grain button nose wadcutter that likes red dot in .44 special

[sergeant69]

My New Vaquero Sheriff...3.75" barrel, prefers bullets about 200-220grains...it wants to spit heavier bullets a little high...this is much to my chagrin as I love the 429421...but it is what it is.

hang time.

[shoot-n-lead]

hang time.

Bingo!

[Forrest r]

I've showed this picture before it's the latest testing I did with a snubnosed 44spl (bulldog).

[IMG][/IMG]

It's hard to beat 2400 in the 44spl, it's also an excellent powder in the 38spl snubnosed p+ loads.

Unique is also 1 heck of a powder in the 44spl. But as the name implies, it is unique to other caliber/bullet combo's. It does extremely well in snubnosed 38spl p+ loads with 125gr bullets. But not so well with 150/170gr bullets in the same snubnosed pistols.

Power pistol is another choice for both calibers with short bbl's. It doesn't do as well with 44spl loads as unique does (close/withing 20fps) but really shines in snubnosed 38spl p+ loads with 150/170gr bullets.

Anyway, I've used/carried a bulldog for 30+ years and in all the load testing with different bullet/powder combo's I've tested. I keep coming back to a 180gr to 220gr lead bullet and 2400.
Buffalo bore makes a 190gr 6bhn gc swc hp that does 1000fps in 2" bbl'd revolvers.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=271

That load posted on the bottom left duplicates their load. That's a h&g 9bhn #142 200gr gc swc hp.
The load on the upper left is my version of the "fbi" 158gr 38spl bullet combined with the buffalo bore's heavy 38spl p+ 1000fps 2"bbl'd load. The fbi 158gr 38spl bullet was a hb (hollow base) swc that was also hollow pointed. My bullet was a 220gr lyman 429422 hollow based swc that I put a cupped hp in using a forster hollow point tool. The end result was a 9bhn 210gr hb swc hp doing 1000fps+ out of a snubnosed 44spl.

Anyway I've always used this simple formula as a starting point for alloys when it comes to hp expansion.
1000fps ='s 1bhn or simply put:
700fps ='s 7bhn
800fps ='s 8bhn
900fps ='s 9bhn

The design of the hp will absolutely affect how the hp performs. More 44cal hp's typically I use:
The penta point hp's ='s 800/100fps
The large round hp's ='s 1000fps/1200fps
The small round hp's ='s 1200fps/1400fps
[IMG][/IMG]

Another thing to consider is that you will get more velocity from a lead bullet of the same weight compared to a jacketed bullet when using traditional copper jacketed bullets.
The 44spl is 1 of those forgotten calibers that can and will easily rival a full sized 1911 in 45apc. A 210gr bullet doing 1000fps out of a snubnosed revolver is nothing to sneeze at.

[sghart3578]

I shoot one of the new Charter Arms Bulldogs and I love it. I load the Lee 200 gr bullet as cast.

I tried to get the muzzle velocity up there with you guys but after about 800 fps it gets a little hard to hold for me.

I am not recoil sensitive, I regularly shoot Ruger only loads and John Taffin loads in my 45 Colt Vaquero but that little, light framed Bulldog gives me the willies when I try heavier rounds. I also have a 357 mag Charter Arms Mag Pug and I shoot full house magnum loads in it. I think the ported barrrel helps.

I figure 5 200 gr bullets at 750 fps in my 44 Spl should do the trick. I hope.


Steve in N CA

[4given]

I think that this 250 grain full wadcutter from Matt's Bullets or something like it would be just the ticket in 44 special!

[4given]

Matt also casts a 185 grain:

[merlin101]

I think that this 250 grain full wadcutter from Matt's Bullets or something like it would be just the ticket in 44 special!

That pic makes it look like a 55gal. drum! Probably hits like one too.

[sergeant69]

is that mold available?? love to cast some

[sergeant69]

I shoot one of the new Charter Arms Bulldogs and I love it. I load the Lee 200 gr bullet as cast.

I tried to get the muzzle velocity up there with you guys but after about 800 fps it gets a little hard to hold for me.

I am not recoil sensitive, I regularly shoot Ruger only loads and John Taffin loads in my 45 Colt Vaquero but that little, light framed Bulldog gives me the willies when I try heavier rounds. I also have a 357 mag Charter Arms Mag Pug and I shoot full house magnum loads in it. I think the ported barrrel helps.

I figure 5 200 gr bullets at 750 fps in my 44 Spl should do the trick. I hope.


Steve in N CA

few years ago i shot a 250 gr keith i cast, loaded for my 629, out of one of my bulldogs just for fun. i was in shock for a week. i got woke up like RIGHT NOW. felt it to my toes.

[4given]

That pic makes it look like a 55gal. drum! Probably hits like one too.

It looks like this one may be it: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...toqqfhmhlf72h2

[rhouser]

Wouldn't that make your brown eyes blue.

I have a selection of 44 mags but have always just used LBT's up to and including 300 gr. I will load to 44 SPC velocities sometime, but, still use the 44 Mag brass to avoid powder ringing my cylinders. I wonder if that flat meplate would feed in my Marlin Lever gun? Like slinging a frying pan.

Cast it in pure soft lead and Powder Coat it to get it down the barrel at about 900 FPS.

Great thread....
thanks rch

[sergeant69]

might make my blue eyes brown. and my pants! gonna find out soon. am casting a few now.