Failure!!!

[shoot-n-lead]

This is not about CB loads, but it is about loads that I am pretty sure that a good many members here probably rely on one of these for self defense.

As some here know, I am a fan of 44 Special and as such, I carry one at times for self defense. My son, also, frequently carries a Charter Bulldog...loves the little gun and big bore. Well, I have long heard how good the Speer Gold Dot 200gr 44 Special bullet is in the Special. I have never carried that bullet..but, I got a box in trade the other day and I loaded some up this morning and with testing it in mind. I loaded this to about 900fps...could have been hotter...but I have always been under the impression that this bullet was specifically designed for the 44 Special...and that it would work at lower velocity. My testing of these loads proved...not so much...at least to me. This premium hp did not offer to open in my water pipe test.

My son wanted to test his Hornady Critical Defense carry ammo while I was at it. So, he tries some of that ammo, with exactly the same result. Did not offer to open.

This test is not meant to mimic flesh or how the bullet would perform in flesh...but it does produce expansion on most bullets tested...even a lot of cast boolits.

I am not saying that anyone should take anything away from this...test your ammo for yourself...that way you know what it will do for you. But, what I am saying is that I will not depend on either of these rounds to expand in a self defense situation. And, I will come up with a cast bullet that WILL expand an acceptable amount...for me.

Just thought that some may find these results interesting.

These bullets were recovered after 15" of continuous water penetration...not several containers.

Speer 200gr and 165gr Critical Defense

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!

[shoot-n-lead]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!

It would probably be a good as these 2 were, for us, today.

Actually, I have always carried full regular wadcutters in the 44 Special. I know the damage it would do...but I would be concerned about over penetration as they penetrate, pretty well.

[NoAngel]

A hollow point "MIGHT" expand....it might not. A healthy meplat on a solid cast bullet is more reliable. Never seen one shrink.
Holes kill stuff. I would much rather punch a good clean hole that won't close easily.

If I were carrying a .44 special as my carry gun, I would look for a well fitted bullet with at least a 75% Meplat. Cast it from a good quality alloy and work up a load I KNOW shoots well and feel secure.

[shoot-n-lead]

A hollow point "MIGHT" expand....it might not. A healthy meplat on a solid cast bullet is more reliable. Never seen one shrink.
Holes kill stuff. I would much rather punch a good clean hole that won't close easily.

If I were carrying a .44 special as my carry gun, I would look for a well fitted bullet with at least a 75% Meplat. Cast it from a good quality alloy and work up a load I KNOW shoots well and feel secure.

I would feel secure also...just not so much for some innocent that might be standing some distance behind the bad guy. I know how much cast bullets will penetrate...one person ain't gonna stop them. It is one thing to have a bullet that might pass through, as compared to one that you KNOW will pass through.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!

I actually did some testing on reversed HBWC's and I was very displeased with the results. Despite all of lore surrounding that concept, I would never carry a load with a reversed HBWC.
That large cavity may look like a great hollowpoint but it doesn't behave like one.
IF you can get it to hit the point of aim (and I found that to be a serious problem at even relatively short ranges), the skirt would frequently separate therefore reducing the mass and penetration of the remaining primary projectile. Other times it would simply peel back on itself and the penetration would still be poor.
I think the appearance of that projectile lends support for its use as an exaggerated hollow point but I found its actual performance in that role to be substandard to even solid non-hollow point designs. YMMV.

[Petrol & Powder]

I would feel secure also...just not so much for some innocent that might be standing some distance behind the bad guy. I know how much cast bullets will penetrate...one person ain't gonna stop them. It is one thing to have a bullet that might pass through, as compared to one that you KNOW will pass through.

Shoot-n-lead, While I commend you for your concern about secondary consequences of employing deadly force with a firearm; I feel that the phenomenon of over-penetration needs to be evaluated in the perspective of the situation.
IF one must use a handgun in a deadly force situation, one's primary concern is to stop the threat. While it is true that projectiles can over-penetrate and be dangerous to others, they can also miss and be deadly, fail to penetrate enough and be ineffective or they may just work as intended.
Obviously, we would like to stack the deck in favor of making the bullet work exactly as intended but a lot of things can go wrong. While the concept of over-penetration is valid, I think it is overemphasized in the realm of self-defense.
A round nose, FMJ is a poor choice for self-defense for several reasons and potential over-penetration is one of those reasons. A solid SWC may penetrate more than a SWCHP but that extra penetration may be key to terminal ballistics and stopping the threat.

I don't wish to imply that over-penetration should be discarded as a concern but I do think it needs to be held in perspective. My first goal is to survive the encounter. The odds of over-penetration being a danger to others in every SD shooting is actually pretty low and I wouldn't want to rely on a bullet design to ALWAYS prevent over-penetration.

[shoot-n-lead]

Shoot-n-lead, While I commend you for your concern about secondary consequences of employing deadly force with a firearm; I feel that the phenomenon of over-penetration needs to be evaluated in the perspective of the situation.
IF one must use a handgun in a deadly force situation, one's primary concern is to stop the threat. While it is true that projectiles can over-penetrate and be dangerous to others, they can also miss and be deadly, fail to penetrate enough and be ineffective or they may just work as intended.
Obviously, we would like to stack the deck in favor of making the bullet work exactly as intended but a lot of things can go wrong. While the concept of over-penetration is valid, I think it is overemphasized in the realm of self-defense.
A round nose, FMJ is a poor choice for self-defense for several reasons and potential over-penetration is one of those reasons. A solid SWC may penetrate more than a SWCHP but that extra penetration may be key to terminal ballistics and stopping the threat.

I don't wish to imply that over-penetration should be discarded as a concern but I do think it needs to be held in perspective. My first goal is to survive the encounter. The odds of over-penetration being a danger to others in every SD shooting is actually pretty low and I wouldn't want to rely on a bullet design to ALWAYS prevent over-penetration.

I agree with you on this...but I know how hard a cast bullet is to stop. I believe there are very effective options for us that are more responsible choices. And, the beauty of cast bullets is that you can tailor a bullet to do pretty much anything, within reason, that you want it to do. So, if I soften my bullets up, lighten them up a little and pull back on the powder charge...they will have a greater chance of not producing collateral damage and still have great terminal effect.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Perhaps if you duplicated the LSWCHP of the .38 Special FBI load but only in .44 Special if that might do what you want. Another idea I have given some thought to is trying Bruce B's soft pointing method with a handgun hollowpoint bullet. Cast the nose in pure lead that you know will expand but with a sturdy base alloy for a foundation. Might even be able to use a nice RFN boolit and drill the cavity if you don't have any HP molds for .44cal. If drilled you could tailor the cavity depth and size to get the result you want. the Maybe it's more effort than it's worth, just an idea that passed through my head and I wanted to give a whirl one of these days if for nothing other than fun/curiosity. Might be just fine with a totally soft bullet without.

Your findings with the Speer & Hornady bullet is one that can happen with any expanding type defensive bullet in the right circumstances.

[shoot-n-lead]

Chris, that is what I am going to do. My 10lb pot, that I will use specifically for this project, came today...and I am ready to start

I am not reinventing the wheel here, lots of folks on here have done this...but I never have.

And, inconsistency has always been the bane of expanding ammo.

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree with you on this...but I know how hard a cast bullet is to stop. I believe there are very effective options for us that are more responsible choices. And, the beauty of cast bullets is that you can tailor a bullet to do pretty much anything, within reason, that you want it to do. So, if I soften my bullets up, lighten them up a little and pull back on the powder charge...they will have a greater chance of not producing collateral damage and still have great terminal effect.

I think that's a responsible way to approach that issue.
I will say that in the area of self-defense with a handgun, I generally want more penetration and not less. The mechanisms involved in stopping a human with a firearm require, at a minimum, for the projectile to at least reach something vital enough to incapacitate the attacker. When constrained by the limited power of a handgun and the fact that the shot presented may not always be a perpendicular, frontal, thorax target; I want the ability to always get that projectile deep enough to work.


I think people have a tendency to seek the perfect mushroomed expanded bullet and the reality is that perfect expanded projectile isn't really key to good stopping performance. I don't care what the spent bullet looks like. I just want it to stop the guy that's trying to hurt me.

[shoot-n-lead]

I think that's a responsible way to approach that issue.
I will say that in the area of self-defense with a handgun, I generally want more penetration and not less. The mechanisms involved in stopping a human with a firearm require, at a minimum, for the projectile to at least reach something vital enough to incapacitate the attacker. When constrained by the limited power of a handgun and the fact that the shot presented may not always be a perpendicular, frontal, thorax target; I want the ability to always get that projectile deep enough to work.


I think people have a tendency to seek the perfect mushroomed expanded bullet and the reality is that perfect expanded projectile isn't really key to good stopping performance. I don't care what the spent bullet looks like. I just want it to stop the guy that's trying to hurt me.

I know what you mean about a perfect mushroom...and I sure ain't fixing to chance that rabbit down a hole. I want some decent expansion and putting a 220gr bullet out there at around 900fps...the penetration will be there...unlike some of the smaller bore concealed carry rounds.

[Petrol & Powder]

44 cal. 220gr., 900fps;
You might be onto something there.

240grain, and a soft alloy, maybe better?

[telebasher]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!

I like a 358091 over 4 gr Bullseye. This will thump nicely. The hollowbase wadcutter will not penetrate, not even a little.

[shoot-n-lead]

44 cal. 220gr., 900fps;
You might be onto something there.

240grain, and a soft alloy, maybe better?

I am going for 220 now, I think we all agree that the 230gr 45acp does a good job...and the .44 has a greater sectional density, the 210-220 should penetrate on par with the 45 caliber 230gr. And, I think that I can play around with the mix and velocity to control the expansion.

[Petrol & Powder]

It's a little heavier than 220gr. but I think with a soft enough alloy (I'm thinking 30:1 lead/tin, maybe even softer) the 429421 would do what you're looking for.

220 gr is still plenty heavy and you might be able to get to 900 fps without exceeding the pathetic pressure limits for SAAMI 44 Special specs. However, with the 245 grain 429421 at 900 fps you would absolutely get the needed penetration and likely some expansion. It might exceed SAAMI specs for 44 Special but in a modern gun you would be fine.

OTOH, you could trade a little weight for speed and go with the 220 grain bullet. That would probably get you within SAAMI specs (or close) at 900 fps. With the right alloy and bullet style you could still get decent penetration.

The 44 Special is a GREAT cartridge but it is severely limited by the artificially low SAAMI specs for 44 Special. In the appropriate gun, 220-250 grain bullet weight at 900 fps is safe and very effective. Unfortunately, it is also beyond the SAAMI specs for 44 Special.

[shoot-n-lead]

My New Vaquero Sheriff...3.75" barrel, prefers bullets about 200-220grains...it wants to spit heavier bullets a little high...this is much to my chagrin as I love the 429421...but it is what it is.

[olafhardt]

I like to think of a 44 wadcutter as a heavy pre-expanded 38. I don't have a 44 so I have no experience with them. When a boolit expands it converts kinetic energy into heat, reducing the ability to penetrate. There is also the increase in drag. No critter is as healthy with a hole all the way through his guts as it was before. I think the cheap round or flat nose or pointed cast or jacketed boolits are about as effective as any other.

[OS OK]

Don't forget this also...we ain't using 'one' perfect round...in self defense you shoot until the perp is down...if you are blessed with steely nerves and calm when all else around you is in chaos...well, that third shot was a head shot. Don't call 911 after that, call the morgue.

[frkelly74]

Not as scientific as the OP in his writing, but in my digging for lead over the years most of the recovered hollow point jacket bullets I have gotten look surprisingly undamaged by their impact with the sand back stop. If they hit a rock that buggers them up but I have on occasion cleaned up the better looking HP bullets recovered and reloaded them just for fun for my 45. I would not buy hollow point bullets for use because in my opinion they are only about as effective as cast that I can make but cost much more. They are for people who don't reload or cast for themselves I guess.