Trying a new idea for .32 Long Colt cases....

[Harry O]

I have formed over 200 .32 Long Colt cases from new .32 S&W Long cases. It is a lot of work. It is impossible to squeeze the bottom "solid-head" portion down the 0.020" required. The rest can be formed, but it requires cutting (and a lot of measuring) at the bottom. That takes time. It is also all too easy to cut too thin the part of the case just above the solid head, resulting in a separation at the first shot.

I ran across 100 old balloon-head .32 Colt NP cases for only $5 at a gunshow this weekend. I had a wild idea and bought them. I took them home, covered a few with forming wax, ran them into the .32 Long Colt sizing die completely up into the sizer (rim flush with the bottom of the sizer), then tapped it out from above with a round rod. I left the spent primer in place while forming it. The case diameter did not completely size down. It was just a little too big at the bottom (approx. 0.322" OD). The case is thicker at the bottom so it did not size down like the upper part did. So I ran it through a Lee 0.314" sizer the same way and it came out the right diameter at the base (approx 0.318").

I am going to form the others and try shooting them. I have shot 41LC balloon-head cases in the past (before Starline started making them). They load just like solid-head cases. However, they do not last as long. The primer pockets get loose after 2, 3 or 4 loads. Anyway, as easy as it is to form them, it is worth doing it.

[Harry O]

Update: I sectioned one of them after forming and did not see anything sinister. The side of the case looks normal thickness all the way down. I did confirm that the lower part of the balloon head was thicker than the upper part. Not a solid head, by any means, but the side of the case is about twice as thick at the base as it is near the mouth. Also, the "cup" for the primer does not seem to be seriously damaged from pounding the case out of the forming dies. There were some marks on the top of it where the rod was hammered against it. However, it holds a new primer properly.

[corbinace]

Thanks for the info and update Harry O.

I wonder if there is enough demand for Starline to make a run of these? It sure seems like a good number of people would snap up a thousand or two if they were to be made.

[Harry O]

It would be nice if Starline started making 32 Long Colt brass.

I had been shooting the 41 Long Colt at least 10 years (if not longer) when Starline started making that brass. I had amassed a couple of hundred original cases in small quantities here are there over the 10 years (I bought everything I could get at 50 cents a case, but passed on those that went for $1.00 or higher -- hence the small number I owned). I tried making cases from 30-30 cases, 41 Magnum cases, and 7.62x39 cases. All could be done, but it was too much work. I later learned to make substitute brass out of 38 Special brass. It was easier to make that than it is to make .32 LC brass now. Eventually, my Brother-in-law made a full length neck expanding die for me. I had to adjust it a little with a drill motor and a file, but it was quick and easy to make the brass with it, not to mention cheap. Just put the case in the full-length neck-expanding die and pull the handle. They were ready to load after that. I used them to practice, but used real cases when shooting CAS. The way it necked down near the base scared other people, but I never, ever had a failure there.

When Starline started making the 41LC brass I got a small quantity (100). It was good, but the price was about the same as what I had been paying for my "real" 41LC brass (about 50 cents a case). Its higher now. After many years of using real 41LC brass with the inevitable losses, I was starting to run short of cases. I bought several hundred of the Starline a few years ago. Not cheap, but it can be picked up easily and quickly if needed. All it takes is money.

I imagine that the same would be true of 32 LC brass. It would not be a whole lot cheaper than what it goes for now, but it would be available without bidding against everyone else in the country. I would certainly buy them. It is a LOT harder to make 32 LC brass from solid-head 32 S&W Long brass. Using balloon-head brass seems to be a lot easier, but they are not easy to find either and they certainly won't last as long.

I have shot the 32 S&W Long for about 50 years now (32LC for only 2 - 3 years). I have bought and reloaded a lot of cases in that time. I can't tell you how many balloon-head cases I have found in the brass I bought through the years, but it is a lot. Unfortunately, my response up until this weekend was to throw out the balloon-head cases. Of course, I did not know I could have used it in 2016.

[Mk42gunner]

Harry,

Do you think it would be worthwhile to drill the end of your knockout rod so it doesn't touch the end of the primer pocket?

I'm envisioning a smaller version of the priming rod used in Lee Loaders for shotguns, where the end of the rod touches the case head instead of the front of the primer pocket.

I too would buy at least a few hundred .32 Long Colt cases, maybe more, to feed my one single shot rifle if Starline were to start making them.

Robert

[Harry O]

Drilling out the center of the rod sounds like a good idea. I will work on that. Thanks.

[Bent Ramrod]

If you know anybody who shoots a .25-20 Single Shot, let them know that you will buy their worn out, mouth cracked cases. They trim and blow out very nicely to .32 Long or Long Rifle size. The brass is still thin (or thick) enough at that point to pop in a heeled boolit and hold it in, or expand for an inside lube boolit and straighten (or crimp) as the operator wishes. I haven't had one go bad yet, whereas the .32 Long Colt shells are pretty thin and fragile.

I've found the .32 Long (rim- or centerfire) to be pretty flakey in rifles. One can shoot like a .22 Long Rifle High Speed out to 70 yards or so, and then the next one is doing good to hit a squirrel at 70 feet. My Stevens Tip-Up with a fairly cruddy bore, shoots the .32 Rim Fires almost as good as my cobbled together Low Wall (with pristine barrel) does the centerfires.

But I ain't givin' up! I love a challenge.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

They're in Buffalo Arms catalog, but online it says Temporarily Unavailable. $1.17 each.

[Mk42gunner]

Captech supposedly makes .25-20 Single Shot brass, but it is out of stock right now and costs $142/100.

Robert

[Chev. William]

Harry O,
What is the Make of the die you used for your .32 S&W to .32 LC reforming attempts?
What is its Mouth radius and taper?

My Experience seems to have been different from Yours.

The taper in my die seems to allow a Case "two blocked" rim to bottom of die to form to about .318" to .320" in a used "Hollywood" Carbide Type .32 LC sizing die. The "Hollywood" Alloy Steel Sizing die then will form the case fully to .316" as it has little or no taper and a very small mouth radius.

I use an RCBS "RC" press with a longer, RCBS "Ammomaster II", Handle with a Ball End that improves my Leverage. Yes the Reforming force is more than I use on my .25 Caliber reforming of cases, but is still less than I used to use with a RCBS "JR-3" press reforming .22 Hornet cases to .25 Stevens diameters in one Pass.

Please Describe Your Setup more thoroughly to help me understand the differences.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Harry O]

Chev William: I use different processes for the solid-head brass vs the balloon-head brass I just got. I experimented with a solid chunk of steel that had various sized holes drilled in it. I hammered each 32 S&W Long case into the holes and then hammered them out. I could not get the solid part of the base to squeeze down. If I had, I think that the primer pocket would have been shrunk. The brass has to go somewhere. It doesn't just disappear. I used a drill motor and a file to remove some of the brass. It proved to me that it would work, but the holes I had were too crude to use other than a "proof of concept".

I later got a Lee 0.323" and a 0.314" push-thru sizing die. I used a modified shell holder to push the cases all the way up into the sizers. They were much better, but still not good enough. They have a large 45 degree transition about 3/16" high on the bottom that did not size the case all the way to the bottom. When cutting out the extra diameter at the solid head, I would sometimes cut above that, thinning the case. Ones like that would fail in the first or second firing. Not good enough.

So I shortened the bottom of the sizing dies so there is no more than about 1/16" transitions. I can go all the way down with the modified 0.323" die, but the base is still about 0.328" to 0.330" in diameter after it is removed from the sizer. I have a rod that I use to pound it out from above. The upper part of the case is smaller. Then I run it through the 0.314" die. I am using a Lee "O" press. A heavier press could apply more pressure. I would need a stronger bench to hold it though, and I still wonder what would happen to the primer pocket. We are talking about displacing approx 0.020" of brass. With the equipment I have, the case goes down to just a little lower than the solid-head and stops. The upper part is down below 0.318" now, but the lower part is 0.325" to 0.328".

I have a mounted drill motor and have a piece that fits into the reduced case neck. I turn it on and use files to cut the base section to 0.316" to 0.318". It means stopping many times and measuring before getting where it needs to be. I have sectioned a few of them and the thickness of the case seems normal after doing this. There is no narrowing, unusually thin walls, or other bad things. It looks like I am cutting ONLY the solid part of the head, not the thinner wall above that now. I have used the 200 or so I formed for about two years now and still have virtually all of them. The most they have been fired is four times so far, though. I am happy with them, but they are NOT good enough to sell, not to mention the time it takes to make each one. They are just for my own personal use.


As I said before, the balloon-head cases are done differently. I run the cases directly through both dies and they come out completely formed. Much easier to make. The only question is how long they will last. From past experience, the primer pocket is the weak point in balloon-head cases. Making a different rod to work around the primer pocket should make them even better.

[Chev. William]

Harry O,
On the thread about reloading .32 Rimfire cases I believe at least one person was using an Arbor Press to Push the case to be reformed into the die.

In my operations I found I could use the Small Primer Pocket swage punch along with the Standard stripper cup and a 3/18 Nominal ID Fender washer to support case Head and Primer pocket as it was pushed into the die up to the top of the rim.


Photo of my 'generic' press and Punch setup for forming (downsizing) cases all the way to top of the rim.


This Photo shows the Punch, Stripper Cup and washer assembled and pushing a case into a die (example).

Also note My Press is "C-clamped" to my 'reloading bench' which is a portable table with a 1 inch thick Marine Plywood Top (two layers of 1/2 inch Marine Plywood Glued and Screwed together forming a roughly 24" by 96" Table top).

The Press is an RCBS "RC" type bought used off of Ebay.
I also have two "JR-3" presses I used to use for the case forming that have Smaller Diameter Rams. The "RC" is not much larger but IS More robust and has a ram size suitable for Larger Cartridge Reloading.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Harry O]

Impressive. Beyond my capabilities, but impressive nevertheless.

[bouncer50]

I also have a 32 long Colt. Some people have solve the problem to rechamber to 32 S&W a lot more common shell.

[Chev. William]

Bouncer50,
Yes, that has been done; but is 'contraindicated' for such as a Stevens 1894 "Favorite" conversion to CF use. Consider if you will what would happen if a .32 S&W Long of Modern Manufacture were fired in this over 110 year old Black Powder Rifle?

By staying with the .318" diameter cases, which are not generally Commercially Loaded at this time, it saves both the rifle and the shooter from harm.

Yes, there are some Commercial .32 Long Colt loaded for 'cowboy' action in Black Powder and some Equivalent Smokeless Propellant charges that are 'safe' for the Older firearms.

And Of course Hand Loading is always Possible and desirable from a Safety Standpoint. No REASONABLE person will deliberately load a cartridge which would explode their firearm in their hands.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Harry O,
Here is a Photo of my .32 Colt Forming tools.

.32 Case forming tools and Samples.

L. to R.: .32 S&W Long case; 1st step Carbide Ring .32 Long Colt sizing die (.320" sized Dia. ); 1st step formed sample (note The 'roll' of Brass just above the Rim); 2nd Step Hardened Alloy Steel .32 Colt Sizing die (.316" Sized Dia.); 2nd step Formed Sample (note the change in shape of the 'roll' of Brass Above the rim).

NOTE: After these Forming Steps, I use a Friend's Shop Lathe to trim the 'Roll' of Brass from the case and trim the rim diameter if needed for the Particular Use Intended.

These Particular Dies are from the Late "Hollywood Engineering" shop and owner.
Other suitable Dies are sometimes listed by other Manufacturers, either Custom or Stock.
The 'Carbide Ring' type die usually have a 'larger' mouth radius and a Tapered lead in to the Actual sizing diameter, which leave a taper to a larger than specification base diameter.
The pictured Hardened Alloy Steel die has a Small mouth radius or champfer and no taper to the Bore, so forms the base of the Case to Specification size; but it does not have the ability to 'gather' a .338" to .339" S&W case mouth into the die mouth, hence it is a 2nd step die.
Both dies Are actually smaller than the 'resulting case size" due to 'spring back of the Brass case material.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Harry O]

Here is some pictures of my stuff:

Left is first sizing at 0.323". The second (middle) is the second sizing at 0.314". The right is after the lower step is filed off (with the help of a drill motor).
Here are the modified lower ends of the Lee sizing dies. Center is an unmodified die. The left is the 0.323" one. The right is the 0.314" one. The modified dies were shortened (grinder, then files, then fine sandpaper) so that the chamfer is smaller and it sizes a longer portion of the case. As you mentioned, the dies are somewhat smaller than the 32LC diameter, but end up the right size due to springback.
This is the modified shell holder that I use the press the cases up into the sizing dies. I cut a piece of steel to roughly go into the center of the sizing die and then brazed it into place. After it cooled, I filed, then fine sanded it flat on top.

[Chev. William]

Harry O,
Nice!

i do wonder how your Primer Pockets come out though.
Do you see any reduction in diameter from the swaging you have done to the Base?
Have you considered smoothing and radusing the Mouth of the .314" die to get the base to swage down also?
Curious,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Harry O]

The 0.323" sizer goes all the way to the base. The OD does get smaller, but with springback, it is only about 0.328" to 0.330" in diameter. The primer pocket does not seem to change much, if anything. The ones I have loaded let the primers into the pocket without excessive force. The 0.314" does NOT go all the way to the base, so it doesn't affect the primer pocket. I have done nothing to the primer pocket, before, during or after the reforming. No problems so far.

I have not thought much about increasing the size of the taper. When I first got the die, the chamfer was taller than the point that it stops now. I thought that I could force it down by decreasing the size of the taper (chamfer). I found that I am going to need a bigger press to do that. No use messing with the die again until I find a heavy press cheap enough on a gunshow table.

[Chev. William]

I see. Since the Starting diameter is about .337", your .323" die is yielding about .328"-.330" or between .007" to .009" Diameter reduction; but does so all the Way to the top of the Rim in the Press you have.

Have you considered getting another Sizing die, say of about .318" or .319", to swage your cases down another step? IF you get the Same spring-back (.005" to .007") that would yield case Diameters of about .323"(smallest) to .326"(largest) Diameter all the way to the top of rim in your present press.

Best Regards,
Chev. William