Having "no bang" issues - school me on primer pocket cleaners, cleaning, etc.

[bedbugbilly]

Didn't know where exactly to post this so figured there are a lot of bottleneck rifle re-loaders here and it might be the best place to ask.

So . . . let me explain. I recently started reloading 30-30 and cast. My first 30-30 that I purchased was one of the newer Winchester 94 "Rangers" - late production with the rebound hammer and cross-pin safety in the receiver. (Why I let the several old Winchester 94s "go" that I owned in the past is beyond me - just wasn't in to shooting cartridge at the time).

The brass I'm using is 1X fired Winchester brass that I purchased from a member here. Looks good, tumbled bright, etc.

The primers I'm using are CCI large rifle primers - a 1K case. I have used them in loading 8mm cast for my old 1905 Danzig GEW98 and all have worked perfectly and gone bang.

So, I loaded up initially, 60 rounds - 10 rounds each of several different boolit weights and designs and powder charges - 118 gr and 150 ish grain. Powder used was Red Dot (as I have an 8 pound jug and it works well in my 8mm - for 50 yard shooting - all I do is plink - don't hunt anymore).

I prime with a Lee ergo hand primer - use it for all my pistol and rifle and have never had any issues.

The first time out with the Winchester Ranger, I had at least 10 % or so that would not go "bang" on the pull of the trigger. Most would go bang on a second strike - a couple on the third strike and one would not fire at all.

O.K. . . . so I make a post in the Lever Gun section and get lots of good advice. My first thought was possibly a problem with some primers not being seated all the way. I also know that some don't like CCI rifle primers as they can be "hard". On person suggested that the Ranger with the rebound hammer design was possibly the problem. I will mention that the rifle was probably "un-fired" when I bought it from a LGS that I haunt.

Prior to actually loading any cartridges, I loaded dummy rounds up with the different boolits to make sure they chambered O.K. and they did.

So . . . second time out, I refine my loads some based on how the first ones shot. I carefully inspect all primer pockets and all are bright and shiny - no curd or obstructions. I hand prime with my Lee ergo primer . . and then . . . used my steel Lyman 310 tongs (for 30-30/32 Special) to make sure that the primers are seated completely. All were.

I loaded up around 90 rounds. Out of the 90 rounds, once again I had about 10 % that would not go bang on the first strike. When they didn't go bang, I would eject and check primer and it seemed to be dimpled adequately, it just didn't go off.

All the CCI primers out of this batch of 1K that I have used in my 8mm Mauser have all fired on the first strike. In my Winchester 94 "Ranger" - not so.

In the meantime, I picked up a nice 1948 Marlin 336 SC. Anything that I have put in that, seemed to fire just fine with the exception of one cartridge - again, on the second strike it went off.

So I guess my questions are . . . .

With the 30-30 head spacing on the rim, if everything is within spec on the Winchester, they should go off and it appears that the dimple should be adequate on those that don't. I make sure that the cross pin safety is completely over . . . I make sure that I have the lever up tight to activate the safety pin that pushes up . . .

Common sense tells me that the culprit is the rifle . . . and when I get back in the spring it is going in to the shop where I purchased it so that the gunsmith can check it out. Unfortunately, I did not have the time to try it with some factory rounds . . . but I will . . to see if there are any ignition problems with those.

My next question though is about primer pockets. I inspect all of the casings well before priming, before putting powder in and when seating and crimping. The priming pockets all "appear" to be just fine. So . . . is there something I"m missing or not giving thought to?

I don't own a "primer pocket cleaning tool" - i have never had an issue with the 8mm Mauser even though some of my casings have been fired a half dozen times - not cleaned or tumbled - just reloaded. I can't see where if a primer pocket is clean it should need to have a cleaning tool run in it or am I thinking wrong on that?

I am not getting overly frustrated - I just want to get it figured out as to why so many misfires. Right now, I am figuring it is the Winchester Ranger. Either something is preventing a strong blow to the primer or the firing pin is a tad short and needs to be replaced - even though it is basically a "new" and "never fired" rifle. The only 30-30s I have ever shot are my father-in-law's many years ago (a 1930 vintage Winchester) with factory ammo and I never remember any kind of a mis-fire or other problem.

Advice on this or on primer pocket cleaning would be greatly appreciated. I did manage to find some Winchester Large Rifle Primers but have not had a chance to try them yet. Seems as though if the same batch of CCI primers work fine in the 8mm that they ought to in the 30-30.

All the "new fangled cartridge" problems are enough to drive me to pulling out all the front stuffers that I've shot for 50 some years! LOL

[koehlerrk]

Mmm, primer pocket cleaning... Ask ten guys what to do and you'll get eleven answers...

Since we're talking commercial brass, not military, we can ignore primer crimps. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

My opinion, as long as the primer seats correctly, in other words a couple thousandths below the case head, and as long as the flash hole is clear, the pocket is fine.

If its real dirty you can have a primer that doesn't seat all the way, but with clean brass, that is unlikely. If you deprime then tumble in walnut shells you could get a little bit stuck in the flash hole. Easy to spot if you're checking them, which you say you are. Just covering all the bases here.

That's about it for my experience with flash holes.

Now, your rifle. Have you taken the bolt apart and cleaned the factory schmoo out of it? There could be chips, dirt, or packing grease inside the bolt keeping the firing pin from hitting as hard as it should. Primers need a combination of impact speed and impact force to ignite correctly. Muck with either of those and you won't have reliable ignition. If you're getting dimples but no bangs, I'd wager its due to reduced impact speed of the firing pin. Its hitting hard enough, but not fast enough. Pull the bolt, clean and oil it. See if that helps... it certainly won't hurt.

[Aunegl]

My primer pocket cleaner tool is a 1/8" Craftsman blade screwdriver. Works with large and small primer pockets. Should I wear out the screwdriver, Craftsman tools have a decent warranty.

[Beagle333]

My primer pocket cleaner is also a very small flat blade screwdriver. Works great.

I would get the 'smith to check out the rifle if it isn't setting off the primers. Whether the flash hole is dirty or not, the primer should still pop and have a good dent in it.

[mac60]

I have a Marlin 336 (older JM stamped gun). I've had it for many years - out of the blue I started having the problem you are describing. I did a little research and found out I wasn't the only one that ever had the problem. A switch to Winchester brand primers cured the problem 100%. It seems the cup of a CCI primer is harder than a Win. primer. Now, I'm not sure how this relates to a Win. model 94 - what I'm saying is it would be a simple matter to just try a batch loaded with Win. primers. Your problem might not be dirty primer pocket - it might be a weak spring.

[Mk42gunner]

I'd check the firing pin protrusion if I had a rifle with those symptoms. Unfortunately, my copy of Dunlop's Gunsmithing is MIA at the moment so I can't give you dimensions, but 0.050- .060" runs through my mind.

Robert

[Boolit_Head]

Couple of questions come to mind. Are you sure the primer is fully seated? The first strike could be driving it in some allowing a second to fire it. But that does not account for the ones that the third strike does not fire. That also begs the question on the first strike do the primers have a solid dimple in them or a light one? The combination of not fully seated with a pin protrusion on the short side could stack up things so they are not in your favor.

In the IPSC competition world sometimes they use small rifle primers in 9mm and 38 super major loads since they are so hotly loaded. Serious shooters will notice a difference in the hardness of the primers and do go for the softer cups although I can't remember which brand is which. Trying a tray of a different brand or two might be a interesting data point.

[mdi]

I'm in the "don't clean pockets" camp. I have been reloading for quite a while and early on I tried cleaning primer pockets but found no advantage. Once I learned to seat primers all the way into the primer pocket, with anvil firmly seated, and disregarding "below flush" measurements, I have had zero primer malfunctions...

(.38/.357, .44 Special/.44 magnum, 9mm, .45 ACP, .223/5.56, 7.62x39, .308, 30-06, 7.62x54r, 303 British. No primer problems)

[DougGuy]

I clean primer pockets every time. Sure it takes an additional step but I don't see any burned residue in any SAAMI specs or loading data anywhere, so I figure it does not belong in there and I take it out with a Hornady primer pocket cleaner. It has a fat knurled aluminum handle and the bit is hardened steel that is simply checkered on the end and it works really good, tried about every other style of brush and cleaner, and this one is the go to tool on my bench..

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/116...pocket-cleaner

[runfiverun]

I got rid of a NIB rifle just like yours because it did that.
nice gold inlay.
real good accuracy.
super nice walnut stocks.
the engraving was real pretty too.

not much use in the field though.
my old scratched up 20" carbine does everything it did [don't look as nice for sure] but it shoots the same ammo the old one wouldn't every time.

[Outpost75]

I am in the clean the primer pocket camp.

I also favor the 1/8" screwdriver bit unless you are using one of the carbine primer pocket depth uniformer tools instead.

CCI primers do tend to have heavier cups. This is a good thing if reloading for a semi-auto, but can be a problem when loading for single-shot or older rifles having firing pins which strike the primer at a steep angle, or which have weak hammer springs, particularly Ballards!

I am a BIG promoter of Winchester primers and prefer them for the great majority of my reloading.

Remington or Federal also work well for me.

I have had mixed results with foreign primers, and of the imports the only ones I would recommend are Norma and RWS.

I would avoid the Russian primers if I could get anything else.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you for the help/acvice.

My first thought, when this started happening, was that perhaps I did' have some of the primers seated all the way in - thus the first impact seated and the second impact fired the primer. But . . because of that, I was very careful to examine each casing and even after seating the CCI primers with my Lee hand primer, I slid the primed casings into my Lyman 31- steel tongs for that caliber and made sure they were seated all the way.

Because of getting ready to leave for AZ, I haven't had the time to try the Winchester primers that I bought. I will try that next as well as buy a couple of different brands of commercial loaded and try them to see what happens. Everything still seems to be pointing to the rifle itself so once I do the above things, off to the gunsmith it will go.

As far as the "first strike" and not going off - I have ejected and checked the primers and they seem to have an adequate (not shallow) dimple on them. That is what has me baffled. But, as pointed out, perhaps there is a "gunk" issue or a weak spring issue or a fireing pin protrusion issue. The rifle probably had been sitting around unfired since it was new. They were produced between 1984 and 2006 and I believe this one is probably one of the later ones since it has the cross pin safety on the receiver. So, it may very well be a "gunk" issue.

I've never had any issues with my Lee hand primer seating the primers fully on my 8mm loads nor any of my pistol cartridges. And, the same primers from the same batch have all gone bang in my 8mm loads. So . . . I'm guessing it may be a "inertia" problem - either something slowing down the firing pin, protrusion distance or spring.

Prior to loading the last batch that I still had issues with, I used a small screw driver and "cleaned" each pocket just to eliminate that as a possibility but all were clean and bright on inspection before using the screwdriver.

I was just wondering if I was missing something as far as the reloading went. Thanks for all of our help/advice - it's greatly appreciated. If, after trying different primers, factory ammo and a trip to the gunsmith it still gives issues - then off to the consignment rack and I'll look for a different Winchester 94 - preferable a pre-war.

Thanks!

Jim

[Half Dog]

I experienced the same thing with my 45 ACP. I used winchester primers and I called and sent the bullets to winchester. They measured and said the primers weren't seated deep enough. I tried loading again but this time I applied alot of force to seat the primers. I still had failure to fire rounds. I switched to Federal primets and 100% fired.

I too am loading for a 30-30. I'm using CCI primers with great success. The primets are older so that might be a factor, they have a $1.39 price sticker on the package.

[Greg S]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...r-Fix-Tutorial

There are many avenues to inspect; primers, seating or gun problem.

Primer/sizing. I've loaded and shot some primers that were stored in questionable conditions for 10-15 years and never had that many miss fires outta a case of 5k so lets do a head stace check and insure your not setting the shoulder back on the initial hammer strike. I would check all cases for consistant shoulder as brass has a tendancy to work harden in 2-4 cycles.

Hand seat your primer, give the case a half spin and seat again to insure your bottomed out in clean primer pockets. Have the pp be uniformed too deep?

The lawyerized 94 with rebounding hammer can be overcome but I would first check fp protrusion with the bolt outta the receiver then dis-assemble and clean the complete bolt and maybepolish the passage way to check for machining burrs that may be catching and slowing the inertia firing pin down. Don't loos the little MF#&$_/!= spring on the tip of the pin.

A finally, you can cut off one of the legs of the hammer strut to remove the nuetral hammer position of the initia hammer returning it to the old style. I might add that you'll probably want to add a reduced power main spring since it is way over powered to generate the speed to carry the hammer through the nuetral position to the fp by inertia alone.

There is a few articles by the on this mod for a winnie 1892 but it is basically the same strut design as in the 94 and for he unsure, new struts are/were available at numerich arms to return them to the standardize lawyer trigger. I found this one locally for the hammer strut mod and attached it above.

[KYCaster]

Google "winchester 94 misfires" and you'll find the info you need.

The problem is with the rebounding hammer. Softer primers may help overcome the problem, but the problem is with the design.

Jerry

[Boolit_Head]

Hmmmm... something else came to mind. Since you said this has been sitting around forever disassemble the bolt and check the firing pin channel. Solidified grease or oil in the channel could be causing a issue with the movement of the firing pin. Possibly even slowing it down or robbing it of energy enough to fire the primer.

[robg]

Clean that 94 ,check that the firing pin has no burrs etc .the cross bolt safety's the only pain to get out then they strip out easy ,turn case when priming to make sure its seated square.I've had that misfire problem with a batch of CCI primers a couple of years ago .

[cutter_spc]

This could be a case sizing issue.True that the head space is supposed to be set by the rim, but manufacturers get lazy, especially when it comes to rimmed rounds with shoulders. If your sizing die is pushing the shoulder of your cases back too far and the rim counter bore in your chamber is on the deep side you can get light strikes like your describing. You can try just backing out your sizing die a bit so that your not pushing your shoulders back. It's a cheap and easy experiment to test out.

[ole 5 hole group]

Looking for a little advice? I got a suggestion, look at the Sinclair Int'l site - their primer pocket & flash hole uniformers operated by a small battery operated drill - I use the small $40 Ryobi drill. If you have a drill press - that works great for flash hole uniforming by just chucking that Sinclair flash hole uniformer - doesn't take long to go through 500 cases. Little expensive but they are a lifetime investment and basically fool-proof, helps when you want your kids to help out without worrying about quality control - everything is controlled for spot-on accuracy relative to depth.

As for your rifle problem - just change your primer - the Federal will go bang every time.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadin...prod36760.aspx

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadin...prod34127.aspx

[Artful]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ing-Hammer-Fix
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...primer-strikes
http://onesticky.levergunscommunity....onversion.html