32 S&W Short in BP

[WestByGollyTexas]

Howdy folks,

New to the forum. I shoot alot of black powder in 45LC, 45-70, and soon to be 32S&W Short. I recently picked up a pair of H&R top latch revolvers for a great price. Theyre in great condition, so theyre getting a trip to the gunsmith just to make sure theyre ok to fire

One of them has a 5 digit SN under the cylinder on the top strap. According to my research, this gun was made between 1894 and 1904, and since it doesnt have the caliber stamped on the left side of the barrel, that its rated for BP cartridge only.

Brass can still be found for these fine little thumpers, and ill be doing casting for it. Definitely looking forward to handling this critter.


Bob

[w30wcf]

Bob,
Nice find. In looking at some vintage U.M.C. and Winchester Catalogs I see that the former lists a load of 10 grs. of b.p. (88 gr bullet) while the latter shows 9 grs. (85 gr. bullet).

There was an article in the Nov 2014 Shooting Times about loading b.p. in the .32 S&W. The author purchased some Magtech .32 S&W smokeless cartridges, dissected them and reloaded them with 9 grs of black powder, seating the original bullet back into the case.

It was not indicated that he lubed them with a b.p. lube.....probably not as 5 shot groups at 21 feet were in the 4" range. He was using a vintage Iver Johnson revolver.

w30wcf

[quail4jake]

I loaded BP .32 S&W some years ago, found that they foul quickly and the cylinder would become difficult to move after loading twice. I used the Lyman 78 gr. RN cast in WW with a conventional lube and 9 gr GOEX FFFg. If I were to do it again (which I might now that you brought it up) I would cast the same bullet in 1/2 WW and 1/2 Pb. and test for a BNH in the 10 -12 range, use SPG or another BP lube and 9gr (or whatever seats firmly) of Swiss FFFg. I don't know about using FFFFg (or if Swiss makes FFFFg).
FWIW, my current load is the 78 gr RN sized .313 with Magma lube @ BNH 12 with 1.5 gr Trail Boss @ 650fps. I don't know if Trail Boss produces similar pressures to BP, if anyone knows please chime in. I have fired that load in my .32 S&W single action from 1884 with no problem but that's my risk taking and I would recommend anyone research it further before trying that.
Best wishes on this venture and please keep us informed on the results (photos please). 120+ years ago someone made this work on a commercial basis...they were so darn smart back then! It's up to us to bring back and pass on their genius; we few, we happy few, we band of brothers!

[NoZombies]

To be honest, I don't shoot BP real often through my .32's. Mostly I stick with BP equivalent loads.

But when I do, here's what I've done and had 'reasonable' results.

I use a legitimate BP lube. I've loaded using 3F powder in both standard and balloon head cases. I prefer the balloon head cases for BP use, as I can get about 9 grains of powder in *and* a thin grease cookie under the bullet. The grease cookie probably isn't necessary, but by using them I extend the BP shooting sessions considerably. I'm not shooting for maximum accuracy, if it's hitting the steel plate and remaining functional, I'm happy. (all of my shooting with these guns is informal plinking type shooting) The grease cookie seems to help keep the fouling soft enough that the gun remains functional longer, with some of the fouling dropping off as it starts accumulating.

I imagine enough of a soft lube in the grooves would probably have the same effect. I recently acquired a "big lube" mold for the caliber, but I haven't tried it out in BP yet. I believe the CAS guys have had good success with that bullet, BP and the little top breaks.

[WestByGollyTexas]

Well,

I got thee chance to take the top latch revolvers to a local and rather reputable gunsmith. He too a look at the handguns and, to my surprise, werent 32 S&w Short, but 32 S&W Long. He even pulled out his antique gun guide and found a BP load. He said the book calls for 1F powder for the loads. Looks like I need to order some brass and cast some bullets and get to shooting.


Bob

[WestByGollyTexas]

I loaded BP .32 S&W some years ago, found that they foul quickly and the cylinder would become difficult to move after loading twice. I used the Lyman 78 gr. RN cast in WW with a conventional lube and 9 gr GOEX FFFg. If I were to do it again (which I might now that you brought it up) I would cast the same bullet in 1/2 WW and 1/2 Pb. and test for a BNH in the 10 -12 range, use SPG or another BP lube and 9gr (or whatever seats firmly) of Swiss FFFg. I don't know about using FFFFg (or if Swiss makes FFFFg).
FWIW, my current load is the 78 gr RN sized .313 with Magma lube @ BNH 12 with 1.5 gr Trail Boss @ 650fps. I don't know if Trail Boss produces similar pressures to BP, if anyone knows please chime in. I have fired that load in my .32 S&W single action from 1884 with no problem but that's my risk taking and I would recommend anyone research it further before trying that.
Best wishes on this venture and please keep us informed on the results (photos please). 120+ years ago someone made this work on a commercial basis...they were so darn smart back then! It's up to us to bring back and pass on their genius; we few, we happy few, we band of brothers!

[dtknowles]

I always thought the S&W's had the prettiest look

Tim

[I'll Make Mine]

I'd suggest that if you have H&R top-break revolvers made before the 1904 switch to smokeless proof, they almost certainly aren't chambered for .32 S&W Long; H&R only chambered for that round after the smokeless changeover. While that round was introduced in 1896 in S&W revolvers, H&R had been selling their pieces chambered for .32 H&R (not to be confused with .32 H&R Magnum, which came out more than 75 years later) since 1887.

The .32 H&R round was a black powder cartridge, longer than the .32 S&W, but not as long as the later .32 S&W Long (it's the same dimension as the .32 Merwin & Hulbert Long, which was a copy of the .32 H&R; the .32 Merwin & Hulbert was identical to the .32 S&W). My 1891 H&R large frame top-break ("large frame" was 6 shots in .32 or 5 in .38, while "small frame" was 5 shots in .32 or 8 in .22) has the chambers bored straight through, so it would be possible to chamber a .32 S&W Long cartridge in it, but some loadings may be too long to clear the barrel. It's my understanding that this was done because the earliest cartridges in .32 S&W and .32 H&R had heeled bullets (like the slightly smaller .32 Colt), even though S&W went to "inside lubed" around 1890 and chambered their own guns for that type from that date on.

As I recall, the .32 S&W (what we now call the "Short") was originally loaded with 5 grains of black, the .32 H&R with 8 grains, and the .32 S&W Long with 9 grains.

[17nut]

I loaded BP .32 S&W some years ago, found that they foul quickly and the cylinder would become difficult to move after loading twice. I used the Lyman 78 gr. RN cast in WW with a conventional lube and 9 gr GOEX FFFg. If I were to do it again (which I might now that you brought it up) I would cast the same bullet in 1/2 WW and 1/2 Pb. and test for a BNH in the 10 -12 range, use SPG or another BP lube and 9gr (or whatever seats firmly) of Swiss FFFg. I don't know about using FFFFg (or if Swiss makes FFFFg).
FWIW, my current load is the 78 gr RN sized .313 with Magma lube @ BNH 12 with 1.5 gr Trail Boss @ 650fps. I don't know if Trail Boss produces similar pressures to BP, if anyone knows please chime in. I have fired that load in my .32 S&W single action from 1884 with no problem but that's my risk taking and I would recommend anyone research it further before trying that.
Best wishes on this venture and please keep us informed on the results (photos please). 120+ years ago someone made this work on a commercial basis...they were so darn smart back then! It's up to us to bring back and pass on their genius; we few, we happy few, we band of brothers!

They do!
But for some unknown reason they switched numbers and priming powder (4f) is called #1 and cannon powder #5

I load my Webley .455 with 21 grains of Swiss #1 fine powder and have loads of fun.

In such a small case i would go with the finest black powder you can get.

For Trailboss and TinStar the golden rule is to measure how far down the case the bullet sits and that is 100% loading.
Weigh that charge and start at 70% of that. Work up carefully but under no circumstance exceed 100% and start compacting the substitutes (pressure spikes fast!).

[Alferd Packer]

To be honest, I don't shoot BP real often through my .32's. Mostly I stick with BP equivalent loads.

But when I do, here's what I've done and had 'reasonable' results.

I use a legitimate BP lube. I've loaded using 3F powder in both standard and balloon head cases. I prefer the balloon head cases for BP use, as I can get about 9 grains of powder in *and* a thin grease cookie under the bullet. The grease cookie probably isn't necessary, but by using them I extend the BP shooting sessions considerably. I'm not shooting for maximum accuracy, if it's hitting the steel plate and remaining functional, I'm happy. (all of my shooting with these guns is informal plinking type shooting) The grease cookie seems to help keep the fouling soft enough that the gun remains functional longer, with some of the fouling dropping off as it starts accumulating.

I imagine enough of a soft lube in the grooves would probably have the same effect. I recently acquired a "big lube" mold for the caliber, but I haven't tried it out in BP yet. I believe the CAS guys have had good success with that bullet, BP and the little top breaks.

yes and use softest lead to cast the bullet from.

Sorry about answering old posts.
I just read this and I love it!

[hoodat]

I'd also like to remind everyone who enjoys shooting these top-break revolvers -- keep good tension/adjustment on the hinge and latch screws. I suspect that many of the old guns that have loose sloppy barrel fit, are not necessarily worn out from tons of shooting, but victims of shooting with loose hinge and latch screws.

I've got two top-breaks, both S&W's and I shoot wimpy loads of Bullseye in them. One is a 32 Lemmonsqueezer, and the other a 38 with hammer and 5" barrel. The 5 incher is so accurate and fun to shoot, that I actually use it quite a bit. jd

Attachment 278286

[everybodydiesintime]

I'm late to the party but very happy to find this post,as I just bought a 32 us revolver co. hammerless and a 38 Iver johnson safty hammerless today.I have alot of these powders around now just to scrounge up some boolits n brass.

[Larry Gibson]

Using factory WRA 32 S&W ammunition with balloon head cases which held 7.0 gr of what appeared to be FFFFg BP under an 88 gr lead bullet produced 10,800 psi in my test gun.

Factory Remington (green box "index1132") with 88 gr lead bullet (1.0 gr smokeless powder) produced 13,300 psi.

Winchester factory 32 S&W with lead RN ran 15,300 psi.

Winchester factory 32 S&W with 86 gr Lubaloy bullet ran 18,900 psi.

Seating depth of factory 86-88 gr bullets is minimal. Most cast 32 bullets seat deeper so seating depth is critical with smokeless powder loads.

[everybodydiesintime]

Anyone have a mold recommendation for the 32 s&w?I mostly use lee molds but times are tuff and i may have to buy fancy molds for now.I just bought a us revolver top break that seems to be all working so now i'm getting ready to cast up some fun.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

Unless they are CLEARLY marked ".32 S&W Long", they are NOT chambered for .32 S&W Long. Most of these old guns were made as inexpensively as possible. Even the real Smith and Wesson guns. One of the production shortcuts was to bore the cylinders completely through, instead of adding a step in each chamber where the brass was supposed to end. That means that a great many of these .32 S&W guns will chamber a .32 S&W Long cartridge. But they are not designed to handle them. Many of them were, in fact, made well before the .32 S&W Long was even designed. Remember, .32 S&W came out in the late 1870s. The Long version wasn't designed until 1896. So you had nearly 20 years of guns made before there was even the possibility of having a problem with interchangeability. Also remember that the .32 S&W Long was a bit more of a premium cartridge than the original .32 S&W. There is no way any manufacturer (well, outside of hand made Spanish guns) would forget to add the "Long" designation to their handgun if their handgun could handle it. That would be like somebody selling their .357 Magnum pistol marked as a .38 Special. So while .32 Long will possibly fit in your guns, don't ever use it in them.

On a less worrisome note, even with the old Black Powder guns, you can safely use current production .32 S&W ammunition in them. That is because it is loaded anticipating that consumers can't read warnings, and are to dumb to pay attention to things like when a gun was made. So ammunition makers will only load .32 S&W to the pressures that would be safe in a black powder revolver. Most reloading manuals also offer loading data with this in mind. Though reloading cartridges that short with your S&W Long dies and be a bit annoying.

As for bullet selection, I think they mostly used an 80-85 grain .312-.314" lead bullet, though I have seen some load data in the past for 71 and 98 grain bullets. You might ask around on here and see if anybody has some bullets in that weight range they would be willing to send you to try out. That might save you getting a mold in a weight/size that doesn't work well in your gun.

-Mb

[Larry Gibson]

"On a less worrisome note, even with the old Black Powder guns, you can safely use current production .32 S&W ammunition in them. That is because it is loaded anticipating that consumers can't read warnings, and are to dumb to pay attention to things like when a gun was made. So ammunition makers will only load .32 S&W to the pressures that would be safe in a black powder revolver. Most reloading manuals also offer loading data with this in mind. Though reloading cartridges that short with your S&W Long dies and be a bit annoying."

That is a common misconception.

Note the actual pressure testing of 3 different factory 32 S&W loads [that is 32 S&W factory loads, not 32 S&WL loads] as noted in post #13 and again here;

Factory Remington (green box "index1132") with 88 gr lead bullet (1.0 gr smokeless powder) produced 13,300 psi.

Winchester factory 32 S&W with lead RN ran 15,300 psi.

Winchester factory 32 S&W with 86 gr Lubaloy bullet ran 18,900 psi.

Only the Remington was as low as original factory loaded with BP at 13,000 psi +/-.

Both of the Winchester loads were much higher with one still under the SAAMI MAP of 17,000 psi. The Winchester Lubaloy load was over the SAAMI MAP but was probably loaded before the SAAMI standards were adopted.

Note; the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&WL is 15,000 psi....less than for the shorter 32 S&W cartridge.

[GBertolet]

I have had some experience loading for the 32 S&W. My Forehand revolver has the cylinder bored straight through. .335 all the way through, with no ball seat. I found that the typical .314 bullet leaded like crazy, and the bullets tumbled. I wound up getting a custom mold made from Accurate. It is a heel type bullet of .335 diameter, of around 90 grains. Cast of a soft alloy, and pan lubed, the bullet easily swages down, when entering the forcing cone. It shoots pretty decent for what it is. Black powder shoots better than the smokeless in this revolver. 6 to 6.5 gr of FFF, seems to work best. Lots of pyrotechnics, when touching the BP rounds off. There is smokeless data for the 32 S&W in the Hodgdon Cowboy Manual under the pocket pistol section.

[Littlewolf]

my two cents on loading 32S&W a good friend of mine has his grandfathers hopkins and allen safety police with papers to prove his grandfather bought it in 1906. if you follow the data in the box of lee dies and stay near or at the bottom of said data you should be fine. the dipper that comes with lee dies is a good load in both my friends H&A and in my F&W 32's for the smokeless it's listed with in the included data. this is all just in case you want some smokeless ammo too.

[smkummer]

I have an H&R 1904 model solid frame. And some colt small frames including a pocket positive and police positive built on a 32 frame. The H&R is a six shot, if it were a 38 S&W chambering, it would be a 5 shot. It appears it has bore through chambers as well. Have not tried it on paper yet but don’t expect the results the colts can do. I was shooting it a few weeks ago with all types of 32 S&W and 32 S&W long picked up from loose batches off of gun show tables. A few duds, most shot and some of the copper primer cases were actually loaded with black powder. Kind of fun shooting the blackpowder, they sounded more powerful even if they were not.

[dtknowles]

If you are reloading for revolvers with bored thru cylindersan idea might be to use 32 long brass and trim it to cylinder length or a tiny bit shorter and load with 32 short powder charges and seat the bullets flush with the mouth of the case. Maybe even use wadcutter bullets.

Tim