webley 1892 loads

[ehsa]

i have owned a 1892 wilkinson webley for 10 years without ever shooting it and would like to give it a go. richard milner of wilkinson says the revolver was made between 1893 & 1900. this gun perfectly chambers factory and some of me 45 colt reloads which i know would be too high pressure. so i happen to have 500 230 grain lead bullets sized .452 which i bought years ago for one of my 45 colts or smith & wesson revolvers. any i have limited knowledge concerning these webley 1892 richard milner says the gun was orginally chambered for the .455 black powder round and does not recommend even colt cowboy loads and some folks say stay away from the fiocchi .455 factory rounds as well. so im thinking i am set up for 45 colt reloading and i have black powder available so mabey a start load of 28 grains of 3f with this 230 grain flat base bullet. i know the orignial bullet was about 260 grain hollow base but i dont have any of those and no 455 cases but since the 45 cases fit wouldnt that shorten bullet jump anyway. i know that there is a rcbs hollow base mold available but i am not set up for casting. no photos of the gun at this time as i am not able to do so. appreciate any help or thoughts.john

[Wayne Smith]

Is the cylinder bored straight through or does it have a chamber edge?
Remember that a BP cartridge has to be full. If you use 45 Colt cases you have to fill the case to the bottom of the boolit - and thus may overpower the gun. If you use a filler you have to add that weight to the weight of the boolit to know what you are loading. The 455 case had significantly less capacity than the 45 Colt so you probably ought to think about cutting back your cases to the appropriate length. This will make them obvious as well, so you don't accidently load one of your full charge 45 Colt rounds in it.

[Outpost75]

I shoot a Boer War period Webley Mark IV of the same era as yours and I shoot light smokeless loads in it with no issues. I use the Saeco 230-grain #954 Cowboy bullet with 4 grains of Bullseye, cast of soft 1:30 tin-lead and tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, loaded and shot as-cast and unsized. Velocity is about 680 fps.

If you don't cast your own, Matt's Bullets is a good source I have used which is very affordable.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.ph...roducts_id=206

[bouncer50]

I have a Webley made in 1894 a Mark 1 45 Colt should not fit the cylinder the rims have to be thin down the 45 Colt is to thick for the cylinder to turn. 1894 was the first year for smokeless powder in the Webley. I have a 1873 French pistol that i use light smokeless loads in and it safe. I also have a 1919 Webley that was rechamber to 45 Colt most were rechamber to 45 ACP which in my opinion is to high pressure unless you reload and reduce the load

[bouncer50]

Their was two ways to rechamber a Webley one was shave down the cylinder or mill down the recoil shield on the frame. I have a feeling since your will chamber 45 Colt it has been rechamber like a lot have been.

[ehsa]

I have a Webley made in 1894 a Mark 1 45 Colt should not fit the cylinder the rims have to be thin down the 45 Colt is to thick for the cylinder to turn. 1894 was the first year for smokeless powder in the Webley. I have a 1873 French pistol that i use light smokeless loads in and it safe. I also have a 1919 Webley that was rechamber to 45 Colt most were rechamber to 45 ACP which in my opinion is to high pressure unless you reload and reduce the load

thank you all for the responses and for the bullet link. i chambered some factory cowboy loads as well as some of my reloads. the cowboy loads are ultra max and winchester brand with 250 grain bullets they all chamber and of my sampling them i would carefully go outside the house to cock the revolver and out of six only one would not allow the cylinde to rotate.i tried some georgia arms ammo 230 grain hollow point rated at 900 fps they chamber and cocking the hammer the cylinder rotates with no stoppage. i do not know what was done to this revolver and i am not sure how to check for that.richard milner suggested that perhaps the cylinder was bored deeper to allow deeper seating or that the chamber mouth was machined with a small rebate to allow the rim to seat deeper. i just double checked and the rims of the case fit like they would in modern colts or simiths with the rim sticking above the cylinder and not like on my smith and wesson 629 with counter sunk rim. i also appreciate wayne smiths commets and it looks to me like the cylinder was bored thru so no chamber edge. wayne how about a wad on top of the reduced load. i have ox yoke made for 44 cap and ball. i also like the idea of small charges of smokeless. mabey some trail boss or blue dot and a wad.thank you all for i want much info before trying or loading anything. appreciate the reminder of no air space with black powder.john

[Cheshire Dave]

I used 45 Schofield brass from Starline trimmed to fit the chambers in my S&W HE2 made for the British and thinned the rims in a drill press with a file. PITA. Fun gun to shoot with light smokeless loads. My S&W had 1.000 inch chamber so I trimmed to .99. Chamber length seems to be all over the place from the info I got online. I guess mine is is actually a .455 Eley. I used a Lee 255 gr mold "Beagled" to drop boolits at .456. I didn't want to invest in a RCBS 265 hollow base for the amount I will shoot this old gal. The Lee shoots as well as I can see the crappy sights.

[Wayne Smith]

Since you apparantly have a 45Colt or so I would still recommend you either get 45S&W brass and trim it or trim some of your 45Colt brass to appropriate length. Then you can load the original BP load without problems since the base of the brass fits.

The big issue to me is to ensure that the ammo for this revolver is visually distinctive.

[ehsa]

Since you apparantly have a 45Colt or so I would still recommend you either get 45S&W brass and trim it or trim some of your 45Colt brass to appropriate length. Then you can load the original BP load without problems since the base of the brass fits.

The big issue to me is to ensure that the ammo for this revolver is visually distinctive.

thank you wayne as you are right about not mixing up ammo.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Their was two ways to rechamber a Webley one was shave down the cylinder or mill down the recoil shield on the frame. I have a feeling since your will chamber 45 Colt it has been rechamber like a lot have been.

I'm inclined to think something of the kind was done, and there is no substitute for checking the groove diameter and making a chamber cast. It is easily done with a revolver, and though Cerrosafe alloy is best, melted sulphur or car body repair filler will do. If it is sulphur don't get it hot enough for ignition of the gas, which will promote rusting of nearby steel. If it is body filler don't forget to oil the chamber.

There are two anomalies here. One is the rim thickness and the other is being able to get the full length of the .45LC case in. The .455 rounds definitely had a shoulder at the end of the brass and a reduced throat, and so did the .450 which preceded them. Is the revolver actually marked (probably on the left barrel flat) with the calibre designation, or has Richard Milner actually examined it? Some Webley and other revolvers were designated .455/.476, meaning that they would accept either the .455 MkI or II, or the cartridge made for the generally unloved Enfield revolver which preceded them.

This is quite a confusing story, which I don't claim to know in full detail. I believe the Enfield had the same groove diameter and perhaps even the same twist as the Martini-Henry. (It was certainly made on the same machinery.) It is often described as interchangeable with the .455 in any revolver, which would make the .455/.476 mark unnecessary. The story I find most convincing is the first two versions of the .476 had a .455 bullet, which was found unsatisfactory. So the MkIII had a .474 to .476 heel bullet, which would justify a cylinder bored straight through in a revolver intended to accept it. I know it was hollow based with a clay plug like the .577 Snider had had.Your revolver might have an appropriate bore diameter, or be intended to swage that kind of bullet (though not a flat based and very hard one) through a .455 bore.

A .452 bullet is undersize for any Webley, which wouldn't matter if it was like some .455s, with an undersized throat. I have meadepesured a friend's well made and original Webley-Fosbery at .448in. throat. This surely depended on a hollow base, for good accuracy with what many consider the kiss of death for revolver accuracy. Some of them do delivery very good accuracy indeed, and many users manage with flat based, but these have to be really soft.

[w30wcf]

ehsa,
Welcome to the forum. It seems as though someone had the cylinders bored straight through since .45 Colt brass / ammo does chamber. Likely the best accuracy is going to come from using .45 Colt brass.

One option would be to load 18 grs of black powder (original b.p. load) and then seat the bullet deep into the case down onto the powder. I did something similar in shooting a 1/2 charge of b.p. in the .45 Colt case. After seating the bullet down on the powder and compressing it a bit, I ran the completed cartridge back into the sizing die and sized it down to the top edge of the bullet to keep it in place which worked well and was accurate at 25 yards.



Velocity in the Ruger's 7 1/2 barrel was....
.............Goex 3F - 778 f.p.s.
Olde Enysford 3F - 831 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[ehsa]

ehsa,
Welcome to the forum. It seems as though someone had the cylinders bored straight through since .45 Colt brass / ammo does chamber. Likely the best accuracy is going to come from using .45 Colt brass.

One option would be to load 18 grs of black powder (original b.p. load) and then seat the bullet deep into the case down onto the powder. I did something similar in shooting a 1/2 charge of b.p. in the .45 Colt case. After seating the bullet down on the powder and compressing it a bit, I ran the completed cartridge back into the sizing die and sized it down to the top edge of the bullet to keep it in place which worked well and was accurate at 25 yards.



Velocity in the Ruger's 7 1/2 barrel was....
.............Goex 3F - 778 f.p.s.
Olde Enysford 3F - 831 f.p.s.

w30wcf

thank you for the information.i do not remember ever seeing any caliber markings on the revolver and i have not slugged it.i just got it out after about 10 years to look it over. will be tomorrow before i can check it further. thanks to all.john

[Outpost75]

I believe that John has posted the most simple and technically correct, most elegant solution!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

ehsa,
Welcome to the forum. It seems as though someone had the cylinders bored straight through since .45 Colt brass / ammo does chamber. Likely the best accuracy is going to come from using .45 Colt brass.

One option would be to load 18 grs of black powder (original b.p. load) and then seat the bullet deep into the case down onto the powder. I did something similar in shooting a 1/2 charge of b.p. in the .45 Colt case. After seating the bullet down on the powder and compressing it a bit, I ran the completed cartridge back into the sizing die and sized it down to the top edge of the bullet to keep it in place which worked well and was accurate at 25 yards.



Velocity in the Ruger's 7 1/2 barrel was....
.............Goex 3F - 778 f.p.s.
Olde Enysford 3F - 831 f.p.s.

w30wcf

That does indeed look like the best way of doing things, if the chamber is as we surmise - which could be a recent modification, an old one, or the way the revolver was built. I've consulted AB Zhuk's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns" (a collection of hand drawings which might sound second best to photographs but isn't). A MkIII Webley, adopted by the military in 1897, has the .455/.476 stamp, but a Webley-Wilkinson has neither this nor the patent and trademark stamps which soon became about universal on Webleys.

The existence of the MkIII .476 means no intention to use the .45LC Colt need be inferred, although Webley were certainly aware of it, as they used it in the Webley Army Express, a solid frame revolver rather like a largern Royal Irish Constabulary model. Even Rider Haggard's Alan Quatermain (in the pages of fiction unfortunately) used a Colt with the American pattern cartridges. Its absence from any official hinged frame Webley has to tell us something.

If a full wadcutter mould is available, it could be used with the cartridge you illustrate, and avoid the risk of debris getting down the ogive of the bullet. While there are circumstances in which an airspace over the powder can lead to a dangerous pressure-wave, I doubt if about half the capacity of fine black powder in a large-calibre revolver cartridge is one of them. For comparison, recent research shows that 212,000 of the rather weak Swiss M1889 rifle were active and reserve weapons for 55 years with a 60% smokeless load (rather than the common mistranslation as semi-smokeless), and we don't hear of mishaps.

I believe I have a small piece of the Webley-Wilkinson, since my Spirlet (close to my child, since I probably saved it from being cannibalised for its ivory by making the hammer and trigger-guard) copies the fluted barrel rib which Webley appear to have introduced about simultaneously on their Wilkinson and Pryse models.

Not to hijack the thread, but... Does your other ID refer to Black Jack Christian the outlaw? My favourite author on shooting, fishing, animal behaviour and South American revolutions is Thurlow Craig, whose career spanned First World War naval service and being the extremely popular nature correspondent of a national newspaper in the, and his, 80s. Part of his biography is "Black Jack's Spurs" - the part he wouldn't let his sons read till they were sixteen, Paraguay in the earlies being an extremely informal place.

Attachment 176168

He was given the spurs, and his ambition to become a cowboy was kindled, by his Uncle Ernest, who after making it big in silver in the Mogollones returned to the UK to become a politician and baronet. As his cousin Ernestine told it, Black Jack's confederate George Musgrave turned up on Ernest's doorstep after the hanging, and sold him Black Jack's horse, saddle and spurs. (It is possible that Ernest was buying, principally, Musgrave's permanent disappearance.) More than twenty years later Craig bought a particularly good horse from a man named Steward in South America. He claimed that he joined a guerrilla column in the Brazilian Paulista revolt to stop one side or the other from confiscating the Bobby horse. Only long after that he discovered that Steward was Musgrave, who had made the transition from minor western outlaw to modern crime boss in South America.

Cousin Ernestine, in describing how Black Jack's head was jerked off when an amateur hangman misjudged the drop, got it wrong. That happened to Black Jack Ketchum. Black Jack Christian was killed in the Skeleton Canyon shootout of 1897. I believe the rest, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Jack_Christian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Craig

[ehsa]

took a look at the webley and there are no caliber markings anywhere. of interest the top of the barrel is marked WILKINSON SWORD CO PALL MALL LONDON then also on top of the barrel crowns over the letters bv bp np. on the bottom flat of the barrel are the initials N.B.E. and regiment designation LHTE 4TH HUSSARS.the webley serial# is 1181x and on the wood stock the wilkinson sword# is 966x. there is a inlay on the back of the wood grip for engraving but it is blank.star of david on the right side of the frame.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Now that is interesting. The 4th Hussars, second regiment into the battery in the Charge of the Light Brigade, and Winston Churchill's regiment, although he was attached to the 21st Lancers in 1898, when he probably saved his own life by killing some four men in a few seconds in "the last horsed charge of British cavalry", with his Mauser C96. Unfortunately this revolver dates from too late for the owner to figure in the complete muster rolls, with biographical detail, in Canon (and ex-Captain) William Lummis's "Honour the Light Brigade".

http://www.genes.plus.com/ARMYLIST/Dragoons.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Queen%27s_Own_Hussars

Robert Wilkinson-Latham of the Wilkinson family posts in the Antique & Military Sword forum of this website, and has copious Wilkinson records:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forum.php

This revolver would have been privately purchased, and one set of initials might be the owner. I would be surer if the escutcheon on the butt wasn't blank. Are you sure that the second isn't "Late 4th Hussars", as might be done for someone retired or attached to one of the army's administrative and service corps? Cavalry regiments weren't large in those days, and this revolver was state of the at for only a short period, so there is a good chance that the regimental museum will have a record of NBE.

http://www.thequeensownhussars.co.uk...tal_museum.htm

Those proofmarks are interesting, if they do indeed correspond to what you see here. For they are post-1904 nitro proof. I'd have thought this was late for the Webley-Wilkinson, which I believe was superseded as the better-quality version by the WG model. It could be all done as new, or showing reproof by someone who had got anxious about all this new smokeless stuff. I think the Webley-Wilkinson should be fine for the normal .455 smokeless load, though now that nearly everyone reloads for them, care should be taken not to exceed it.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

The star of David might be by analogy with a mark sometimes seen on British swords, in the form of a brass or bronze disc expanded into the bottom of a circular recess, though I don't know if Wilkinsons, who were primarily swordmakers, used it. It doesn't appear to have any Jewish connotation. It is simply the about the easiest pattern to machine-engrave on the end of a round punch with six cuts as it rotates sixty degrees.

[17nut]

Unless Webley changed the design a lot there is simply no room for a 45LC case with a bullet seated normally (at least not in my MK VI).

Cylinder of a Colt 1873 SAA and a MK VI



MK VI cylinder with a 45LC (standard length) and a (way) long .455



Note the bullet overhang and that is with a thick rim




Slug that barrel and see what the cat has brought in, then well take it from there.

[17nut]

Thought!
If the chambers are indeed reamed through in full case diameter then you might gain some accurracy by using shortened .460S&W cases that support the bullet right into the forcing cone, instead of a 45LC and let the bullet "rattle" from the case to the barrel..

[ehsa]

Now that is interesting. The 4th Hussars, second regiment into the battery in the Charge of the Light Brigade, and Winston Churchill's regiment, although he was attached to the 21st Lancers in 1898, when he probably saved his own life by killing some four men in a few seconds in "the last horsed charge of British cavalry", with his Mauser C96. Unfortunately this revolver dates from too late for the owner to figure in the complete muster rolls, with biographical detail, in Canon (and ex-Captain) William Lummis's "Honour the Light Brigade".

http://www.genes.plus.com/ARMYLIST/Dragoons.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Queen%27s_Own_Hussars

Robert Wilkinson-Latham of the Wilkinson family posts in the Antique & Military Sword forum of this website, and has copious Wilkinson records:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forum.php

This revolver would have been privately purchased, and one set of initials might be the owner. I would be surer if the escutcheon on the butt wasn't blank. Are you sure that the second isn't "Late 4th Hussars", as might be done for someone retired or attached to one of the army's administrative and service corps? Cavalry regiments weren't large in those days, and this revolver was state of the at for only a short period, so there is a good chance that the regimental museum will have a record of NBE.

http://www.thequeensownhussars.co.uk...tal_museum.htm

Those proofmarks are interesting, if they do indeed correspond to what you see here. For they are post-1904 nitro proof. I'd have thought this was late for the Webley-Wilkinson, which I believe was superseded as the better-quality version by the WG model. It could be all done as new, or showing reproof by someone who had got anxious about all this new smokeless stuff. I think the Webley-Wilkinson should be fine for the normal .455 smokeless load, though now that nearly everyone reloads for them, care should be taken not to exceed it.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

The star of David might be by analogy with a mark sometimes seen on British swords, in the form of a brass or bronze disc expanded into the bottom of a circular recess, though I don't know if Wilkinsons, who were primarily swordmakers, used it. It doesn't appear to have any Jewish connotation. It is simply the about the easiest pattern to machine-engrave on the end of a round punch with six cuts as it rotates sixty degrees.

took another look i checked and it is possible that what i think is an H may be an A. those letters are i guess in block form and if this is an A the two vertical bars at the top almost close with what would be a flat top A instead of a teepee shape. the star of david has H. W. in the center of the star.i looked at all these marks with a magnifying glass.about 9 years ago richard milner sent me an email and said that churchills wilkinsons was numbered close to mine with his webley serial# being 11869 mine is 11816. he said he saw churchills wilkinson but did not take note of its wilkinsons number. mine is 9661 the wilkinson sword register number.the frame has a bv with a crown and crossed swords with letters i cant be sure of.the cylinder has bv and crown, np and crown, bp and crown.these are over each chamber as well.they are above the cylinder flutes.each mark is on the cylinder twice. the cylinder is numbered to the gun 816. that number is well marked and not machined away at all.there is steel above it to the outer edge.just more things which makes it all the mor interesting.all marks are pretty clear with exception of the crossed swords on the left side of the frame.thanks a lot for the links.john

[ehsa]

ok i checked the length of the cylinder with my calipers.the webley measured 1.568 and my smith & wesson 45 colt mountain revolver 1.675 a difference of 0.107. the georgia manufactured round that worked so well a 230 grain bullet is 1.569 and the cowboy loads from ultramax a 250 grain flat nose lead bullet are 1.575 and the winchester cowboy loads 250 grain flat nose are 1.572.these being over all loaded lenghts. the first one (230) never gave any problem some of the 250 would not let the cylinder turn but part of the time.john