Pedersoli Sharps 45/70 Which Lee Mould?

[knewmans]

I'm just starting with PP 45/70 in a Pedersoli Sharps. I've sized .458 soft 545gr Postell bullets to .452 (.002 over bore size) using a LEE sizer. They are then patched with green music ruled printer paper to .462, waxed and loaded into unsized fired cases so they are touching the lands. These sizes match my throat and freebore.

I'm using 25gr 5744 and they seem to shoot ok out to 600yds which is the farthest I've taken them.

[montana_charlie]

the only "gospel" for any rifle is what the manufacturer dictates.

That's what I'm getting at. The first line in the manufacturer's 'gospel' says use only commercially manufactured ammunition.

[Lead pot]

All of these rifles where loaded with AA 5744 including this .40-65.

All of these rifles let loose in the last 4 years. Your 25 gr load is a good 3 grain over for the weak actions. Also it gives a good chance for that double based powder to be set off as a detonation. This is one of the collusions they came up with for two of these rifles.
Be safe and don't kill the person shooting next to you.
I stood with in 20 feet next to one of these rifles that blew and watched the barrel flying through the air twisting and the screams of the shooter laying on the ground with a torn up hand.

[rfd]

That's what I'm getting at. The first line in the manufacturer's 'gospel' says use only commercially manufactured ammunition.

which can be either bp or smokeless commercial ammo for a pedi 45-70 - their barrels are not marked for bp only and can at least take trap door smokeless loads (as advised to me by pedersoli). the feller that blew up his pedi sharps at quigley was reportedly firing his loads of 50 grains of aa5744 under a 500gn bullet AND a wad - if so, that's Insane Nuts. that's totally gross operator error and WAY beyond the aa5744 max loads as listed by by accurate and other load data guides. in that case, it wasn't a firearm failure, it was human stupidity that went far beyond the manufacturer's gospel.

[knewmans]

I appreciate your experience here Lead Pot. There also seems to be a big variance in the suggested loads published for this cartridge.
Max loads with 5744 or Lovex D060 (same as 5744)

Lyman 49th 535gr Postell 28gr 17900CUP 2.93" OAL
500gr #457125 28gr 17400CUP 2.835"OAL
Accurate 535gr Postell 22.4gr 18600psi 2.95" OAL
500gr Montana RNFP 28.4gr 27434psi 2.70" OAL
Lovex 500gr 24.7gr 30500psi 65mm (2.56") OAL

I must admit now to being confused and not sure of the correct way forward to stay within the published limits for the action.

[rfd]

i loaded with aa5744 for a few years in a pedi .45-70 roller. it works just fine with accuracy better than its operator (moi). i mostly cast and loaded for a lyman 457132 postell, using 25.1 grains of aa5744 - NO FILLERS OR WADS, not ever! though these dayze all my firearms, save my 357mag revolver loads, are all loaded with swiss bp.

it was interesting to see the latest BPCR NEWS mag and read about this year's quigley and see there were lots more folks loading and winning with smokeless than i would have imagined ... and sr4759 seemed to be a favorite powder.

[Lead pot]

I don't care what you guys shoot as long it is in the limits. Large capacity cases starting with the .45-70 or even the 38-55 where the powder can lay flat in the bottom of the case using the smokeless powder in some cases the level powder is below the flash hole of the primer can be more dangerous then a heavy load.
What I see on some of these forums where the hype is velocity for these big bore rifles and I see some loading the .45-70 up to the .458 Win Mag specks just scares the hell out of me thinking that someone next to me on line might have his .45-70 or larger cases loaded this way.
On this forum I see sometime mentioned patching a bullet that is already at groove diameter with a smokeless load. Some say that they run them through a push through seizer. They must be bending the press lever hanging on it seizing a bullet of those diameters, something my swage press would be a hard pull. I once saw mentioned that they use a patched bullet .462" deep seated in a .45-70 case with a healthy load at 2000 fps they where getting from it. Just think what the pressure spike would be with that.

Look just be safe and use your heads and maybe you wont hurt the person next to you, as well as your self.

You don't need 2000 fps to reach your mark. 1180 fps out of a .45-70 will reach the 1K in fine shape.

Be safe......... Kurt

[rfd]

+1 with kurt's post - be safe, not sorry. for whatever good it'll do, i've gotten in the habit of asking neighbor shooter's on the line what their loads are ...

[Nobade]

Sorry to stir up a hornet's nest here. Obviously if you're using smokeless powder you need to use some common sense and not make up stupid loads. What I suggested is in published loading manuals, and nothing is terribly high pressure. I see no need for that, all it does is punish your rifle and your shoulder. Of course you can destroy a rifle with 5744 or 2400 or other fast burning double base powder. Don't do that, it's stupid. Better to keep your 45-70 smokeless loads down in the Trapdoor Level I range, they are still plenty powerful and not so hard on things. This is why I cautioned about using anything faster than 3031. A case full of that in a 45-70 is plenty powerful and not terribly high pressure. Any powder faster than that is going to need some air space in the case or it will overpressure. You must be careful with those.

As for rifles stamped "black powder only" or not, it's a SAAMI thing. 45-70 is a SAAMI cartridge and smokeless ammo is available for it. High pressure factory ammo included, from Buffalo Bore. 38-55 is also. But anything else is not, there are no pressure standards for 40-65, 45-90, etc. so they stamp black powder only. My own Browning 40-65 is stamped that way. But nobody is going to tell me that rifle can't stand some very powerful smokeless ammo run through it. They make the same rifle in 375 H&H and other high pressure cartridges. I am not going to load it with smokeless, I see no need for that, but I certainly could if I wanted to.

The main point here is Use your head! Some common sense goes a long way to making this sport fun and successful and not dangerous. If you don't know what is going to happen when you pull the trigger, you probably have no business attempting it.

-Nobade

[Lead pot]

Sorry to stir up a hornet's nest here.
-Nobade

Nah, no Hornets in the air yet. It never hurts to look at the hornets nest instead of using the stick.

[Boogieman]

The picture in Lead pot's post shows a split barrel not an action failure , centering at the dovetail cut for the forend hanger. Looks like a stuck bullet or a faulty barrel.

[rfd]

... As for rifles stamped "black powder only" or not, it's a SAAMI thing. 45-70 is a SAAMI cartridge and smokeless ammo is available for it. High pressure factory ammo included, from Buffalo Bore. 38-55 is also. But anything else is not, there are no pressure standards for 40-65, 45-90, etc. so they stamp black powder only. My own Browning 40-65 is stamped that way. But nobody is going to tell me that rifle can't stand some very powerful smokeless ammo run through it. They make the same rifle in 375 H&H and other high pressure cartridges. I am not going to load it with smokeless, I see no need for that, but I certainly could if I wanted to. ...

very interesting and that pretty much explains the "black powder only" stampings. thanx andy!

[Lead pot]

The picture in Lead pot's post shows a split barrel not an action failure , centering at the dovetail cut for the forend hanger. Looks like a stuck bullet or a faulty barrel.

No it was a wad over the powder holding it down with a air gap between the wad and bullet that did the damage. Also he had rings from doing it before this one.
I have never heard what the powder charge was, but some loads where pulled to see what it had. I met the Ambulance when I pulled on the range.

[EDG]

It is irresponsible to suggest that any or every smokeless will blow up every .45-70 including the Pedersoli. In fact these guns are often only warranted with smokeless if they are chambered for a SAAMI standardized round. No one warrants a rifle for use with handloads.

The fact is smokeless can blow up any rifle and to present it in this fashion is misleading.
The 40-65 Ballard that you posted is a good example of your blaming smokeless when several other things were involved. I think you should cover all bases with that Ballard.
1. It was a crappy cast iron action barely safe for a .22 rimfire
2. It was chambered in a round that should never have been chambered in a cast iron Ballard and probably not in any Ballard that you want to shoot a lot.
3. Smokeless was used but it appears that it was double charged.
There are at least 3 items that affected that blow up. All point to a grossly inept or irresponsible owner. Blaming only smokeless is a tale of fiction.

Nah, no Hornets in the air yet. It never hurts to look at the hornets nest instead of using the stick.

[EDG]

Not really. You have to use a little logic sometimes. The rifle manufacturer is not some god. They have logic that they use too.
For example.
Browning manufactured BPCR Highwalls in 40-65 and 45-90. The barrels were made by Badger using the same material as the 45-70 barrels.
The .40-65 and .45-90 barrels are marked "Black Powder Only". Why? Because they know there is NO Saami standard ammo because neither round was ever standardized by SAAMI.
If there is NO ammo then it by definition will be hand loaded. Everyone knows that you can get enough smokeless into a cartridge to blow up the gun regardless if it is a BP gun or not.
So Browning marked the 40-65 and 45-90 rifles for BP only knowing that not even fumbling old men can over load them with BP.

If you really follow the gospel you would not shoot a 45-70 with black powder because it is a SAAMI stadardized round. No manufacturer warrants their fire arms with reloads.
Since there is factory SAAMI standard ammo available for the 45-70 you are violating the gospel if you shoot anything but factory ammo in your 45-70. You do realize that your 45-70 is not marked black powder only? So the gospel can cut both ways. You can chose to use your brain or you can just follow the gospel. Diligent following of the gospel will cut off hand loads for any SAAMI round including 38-55 and 32-40 and some others.

the only "gospel" for any rifle is what the manufacturer dictates.

[rfd]

i totally agree ... my remark was actually "tongue-in-cheek", since amended.

Not really. You have to use a little logic sometimes. The rifle manufacturer is not some god. They have logic that they use too.
For example.
Browning manufactured BPCR Highwalls in 40-65 and 45-90. The barrels were made by Badger using the same material as the 45-70 barrels.
The .40-65 and .45-90 barrels are marked "Black Powder Only". Why? Because they know there is NO Saami standard ammo because neither round was ever standardized by SAAMI.
If there is NO ammo then it by definition will be hand loaded. Everyone knows that you can get enough smokeless into a cartridge to blow up the gun regardless if it is a BP gun or not.
So Browning marked the 40-65 and 45-90 rifles for BP only knowing that not even fumbling old men can over load them with BP.

If you really follow the gospel you would not shoot a 45-70 with black powder because it is a SAAMI stadardized round. No manufacturer warrants their fire arms with reloads.
Since there is factory SAAMI standard ammo available for the 45-70 you are violating the gospel if you shoot anything but factory ammo in your 45-70. You do realize that your 45-70 is not marked black powder only? So the gospel can cut both ways. You can chose to use your brain or you can just follow the gospel. Diligent following of the gospel will cut off hand loads for any SAAMI round including 38-55 and 32-40 and some others.

[country gent]

There are normally 3 levels of 45-70 loads in the manuals Trapdoor and originals, Marlin lever actions, and ruger number 1&3 along with bolt actions. Some believe ( Ive had several tell me this) that the New modern reproduction sharps C Sharps, SHilohs, and Pedersolis being made of modern steels can use the #1s loads. I have never understood trying to make a 45-70 or even a 45-90 into a 458 win mag or 460 weatherby by over loading it. The Black powder velocity loads ( 11-50-1200 fps) have performed exceptionally well for over 100 yrs now. A heavy bullet 280-300grns bullet for the long colt would cast around .452 and be about right with Seth Cole paper. But the short bullet in the 18 twist barrel may not give the best performance accuracy wise being over stabilized. My Pedersoli really likes the 434 lyman postell. or the brooks bullet paper patched and the mould set to 1.370" long, about 500 grns or so. Its a 34" barrel with 1-18 twist half round contour.For the lighter shorter bullets a 1-20 to 1-24 might be a better choice if available. These black powder cartridges didnt up power thru added velocity ( although there were some "express" rounds out there) but by adding bullet weight at the same basic velocity.