Pedersoli Sharps 45/70 Which Lee Mould?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hi guys. I'm going to be receiving a copy of The Paper Jacket any day now.
I would like to load some patched boolits for the 45/70. I have a lee 405 grain mould to start.
Is there a better Lee mould for this application? Or a Lyman? I have some buddies with Lymans I could borrow to stock up with.
Thanks guys! Can't wait to start patching !

[rfd]

personally, no lee mould. i'm an old grease groover that's barely getting my act together to begin paper patching for .45-70 rifles. none of the lee moulds will be of a proper smaller diameter (i.e. - .442" or so) for proper paper patching in a .450" bore barrel (if yer pedi's barrel is indeed that diameter). all of the lee moulds will drop between .457" and up to .460" and if you add in .008" or so for two layers of .002" paper, yer gonna end up with a way overbore bullet. think instead of going with a true paper patch mould from BACO or old west or boomers or many other custom mould makers. yeah, Lots more cost than a $25 lee mould ....

[rockrat]

You might be able to size the Lee boolits down to .451" and paper patch them to work. Depending on what you have in the way of size dies, you could lube the lee boolits @.457", then go down to .454", then .451". Lube in the grooves will help to not collapse the driving bands. Then put the sized boolits in a cheap pan of boiling water to get the lube off of them, dry, and then paper patch.

[rfd]

You might be able to size the Lee boolits down to .451" and paper patch them to work. Depending on what you have in the way of size dies, you could lube the lee boolits @.457", then go down to .454", then .451". Lube in the grooves will help to not collapse the driving bands. Then put the sized boolits in a cheap pan of boiling water to get the lube off of them, dry, and then paper patch.

how will sizing a bullet down to .451" or so allow a few wraps of .002" to fit inside a .450" or so bore?

[country gent]

There are 2 methods of paper patching. Bore dia slugs and groove dia slugs. The bore dia allows bullets to slide up intothe bore with only 1/9" or so in the case. This allows more room for powder and when done corectly the bullet seems to center up better in the bore. Loads are much longer than normal. You do need a tighter siing die for these bullets. The mould casts at .442-.444 depending on paper used and bores actual dia. These are a smooth sided bullet and will swell on fioring to engage the rifling. Groove dia starts with a bullet of .450-.451 and with 2 wraps of paper ends up .459-.460 dia and loaded as a standard bullet. Seth Cole paper is very good, Onion paper from buffalo arms works well also. Tracing papers may work depending on thickness. I too wouldnt recomend a Lee mould but a special from Old West moulds, Steve Brooks, Kal, Accurate,Baco, or Noe. I have a brooks .442 money ogive thats adjustable for length / weight thats a dream to cast with, its a cup base that allows the paper to fold under and the bullet to set flat. I have a Buffalo arms 393 ( 40 ) cal smooth side flat base mould that casts a very good slu thats easy to wrap and load. Randolph S Wrights Book, Loading And Shooting The Paper Patch Bullet, A Beginners guide is very good and alot of information in it. I have both the paper jacket and it here and much perfer the Wrights Loading and shooting....... . Use softer lead alloys of 16-1 to 20-1 to allow bullets to swell. Make your template up so its the right fit when wrapped on the bullets. I dont wrap with a tail but simply fold the "tail" under flat and into the cup base.leaving about .100 of the base showing in the center.

[Boogieman]

My Lee 405gr. drops at .458" out of soft lead . I size to .452 ,no lub. then wrap to .460 wet, dry, lub. with JPW and size to .458" bore size for smokeless loading. This works with Lee's 450gr. also. Lyman's # 451114 should work with little or no sizing but I haven't tried it,

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm shooting smokeless so I was figuring they drip around .458 or so.
Size down to .452 and patch up to .460 would be a good start.


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[montana_charlie]

I'm shooting smokeless so I was figuring they drip around .458 or so.
Size down to .452 and patch up to .460 would be a good start.

Shooting smokeless, you can't use bullets patched to bore diameter. They will not obturate fast enough to prevent blowby.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I was figuring size down to 1 Thou over bore and wrap to 1 thou over groove.
My post above would be doing that. I would be patching to groove not bore. Am I missing something? I'm about 1/3 of the way through The Paper Jacket right now. Seems like I'm on the right track .

[Lead Fred]

Id go NOE Ranch dog 430 over any Lee.




<----- Thems what ya want

[sharpsguy]

If you want the very best accuracy from your Pedersoli 45-70, here's the deal. The bullet is a 535 grain Lyman Postell out of a Lyman 457132 mold. Cast it 30-1, lead to tin. Load Remington cases with 70 grains of Goex 2f powder and use a CCI BR2 primer. That WORKS in a Pedersoli.

Forget the 400 and 450 grain bullets. The 1-18 twist Pedersoli barrel does not give accuracy anywhere near as good with the lighter, shorter bullets. I have several Pedersoli rifles in 45-70, and this load excels in all of them, easily giving five shot groups of less than an inch at 100 yards with decent tang and globe target sights.

I have tried a lot of different bullets from a lot of high dollar custom molds, and nothing shoots like the 457132 Lyman out of a Pedersoli 45-70. The shorter, lighter bullets, not so much.

[rfd]

the lyman 457132 that drops at about .459 and 523 grains for me with 1:30 alloy is fine for a grease groove (IF you get a good mould, some are definitely not) - but as a ppb bullet, i can't see how unless it's severely manipulated?

as a gg bullet, i had a few of those moulds that were good shooters in a few pedersoli rollers and sharps. lately, the BACO 459435 that drops at about .4595 and 444 grains @ 1:30 delivers the same good accuracy for me in pedi rem roller. ya never know 'til you try, lotsa variables and subjectivity ... that's what makes bpcr so much, er, "fun".

[Lead pot]

rfd.

I think what sharpsguy is getting to in kind words from what was said above that he will be chasing his tail to get the best accuracy from that pedersoli sizing down oversized gg bullets. You can never get the upmost accuracy from cast bullets sizing them down and relocating the lead to a different spot. You cant compress a lead bullet. All you can do is flow the excess lead to a different location and chances are it will not flow evenly.
I don't think that there is a person on any of these forums that has tested powder and loads more then this guy has. He knows what makes a .45-70 work.

Michael don't waste your time trying to make a wrong diameter mould work. All you will accomplish is getting frustrated and blame the rifle for not meeting your expectations for accuracy.

Fine if you want to shoot smokeless, but your rifle will give you better results with black powder. Do a little home work and figure out what diameter bullet you need with the paper you will use. If you want to use smokeless patch the bullet to groove diameter and seat it in the case like you would a GG.

If your bore diameter is .450 then a patched bullet for smokeless from .455 to .459 will work. If the expense is a problem for a mould here is a place you can get a quality mould made for your meads. I have a couple of his moulds and they are Quality.

For a PP for a black powder load get the proper diameter for this purpose. A good mould with the proper diameter will make your life more joyful with the good results you see down range.

[Nobade]

Since this is the smokeless PP room, I would suggest finding the heaviest 45 Colt bullet mould you can and giving that a try. They are already about the right size, and .452" sizers are available off the shelf. Patch to about .460" or so, seat to lightly jam the patch into the lands, load with a powder that allows 100% load density, and have at it. Note that loading PP and smokeless is WAY different than loading PP and black powder.

For powder, I have had good results with most of the IMR numbers in the middle of the burn rate. From 3031 to 4350, they all work fine in the 45-70 with a modern strong action like your Pedersoli. For lighter loads, 4198 and Wal Mart pillow stuffing work well also.

-Nobade

[rfd]

i can easily size a dropped .459 bullet down to .452 using a push-up lee sizer - maybe that'd work, too, for a smokeless ppb?

[Lead pot]

Yup Nobade, The Pedersoli action might be strong. But Pedersoli stamps on their Sharps rifles for blackpowder only.


Michael, just keep in mind that this can happen using smokeless in your Sharps. And besides you getting hurt the guy shooting along side of you can also get hurt.

[rfd]

um, no sir - i have both a pedersoli sharps and rolling block rifle, and both types aren't stamped, marked nor warned of only using black powder cartridges. these rifles have actions that are forged machined steel and just as capable of loading smokeless powder cartridges as are shiloh, c.sharps and cpa rifles, within the limited range of pressures for each action design.

[montana_charlie]

um, no sir - i have both a pedersoli sharps and rolling block rifle, and both types aren't stamped, marked nor warned of only using black powder cartridges. these rifles have actions that are forged machined steel and just as capable of loading smokeless powder cartridges as are shiloh, c.sharps and cpa rifles, within the limited range of pressures for each action design.

If you are going to use that as gospel for using smokeless powder, then you must also comply with the very first line.

[Lead pot]

Yup your right. My mistake.

It stats Weight: 10.5 lbs. Note: All .45/90, .45/110, .45/120, .50/70 & .50/90 caliber firearms are BLACK POWDER ONLY

Well here is another .45-70 with a "safe" load of smokeless.

[rfd]

If you are going to use that as gospel for using smokeless powder, then you must also comply with the very first line.

the only "gospel" for any rifle is what the manufacturer dictates.