Deer with a rbh and 45 colt

[Wolfer]

I've taken several missouri whitetail with a 45 colt. All with 245/255 gr boolits and 1 with a 250 gr nosler.
All were pushed to around 1000 fps by anywhere from 8.5 to 10 gr of unique.
My gun is a new vaquero and I don't push it any harder than that. My experience has not led me to believe I needed to. Where I hunt its brushy and 30 yd shots are on the long side. At longer ranges added velocity may certainly help with placement.

I started with the Lee 255 RF. My most accurate boolit so far. At 950/970 fps penatration is not an issue. I've never shot a deer completely lengthwise but have done some hard raking shots. The only recovered boolit I have I dug out of the ground behind the coyote it went through.

At this velocity it pretty much just cuts a 45 cal hole. Blood trails were skimpy but not very long. I nearly always saw them go down.

Wanting a little bigger exit wound I went to a 452-429 Keith and had a small HP put in one cavity. This definitely gets me a better blood trail if it exits. It tends to not exit on raking shots but the only broadside it didn't was a very large doe and it broke both shoulders and bulged the hide on the far side. No tracking required.

This year I am trying the NOE version 255 RF with a cup HP. Initial testing shows it not to get as big so I'm hoping for good accuracy and penatration with a slightly larger exit hole. Time will tell.

One of the things I like best about the 45 colt and the standard or just above loadings with a heavy RF boolit is its ability to take small game with out meat damage but still able to handle much larger game with considerable authority.

Side note. I have many 45 cal molds including the Lee 300 gr. My gun will not stabilize it at velocities I'm comfortable with.

[DougGuy]

Side note. I have many 45 cal molds including the Lee 300 gr. My gun will not stabilize it at velocities I'm comfortable with.

Correct. Your Vaquero have the 3 digit prefix in the serial number? It is only safe to 23,000psi and not safe with the 30,000psi Ruger Only loads that *will* stabilize the Lee 300 RF.

I am having great luck with the trio of LBT WFN boolits in my New Vaquero that I converted the .45 ACP cylinder to .45 Schofield. I can get them to 1200fps and still stay under the 23,000psi pressure ceiling and they are not nearly as scary as the full house Ruger Only loads. If I can do it in Schofield brass, the top end of the "tier 2" loads as Brian Pearce calls them is even easier to do in .45 Colt brass.

It was asked earlier why not 1,000fps, why the extra velocity? Deer aren't THAT hard to kill, well, here is one *very good* reason to push the WFN to 1150 ~ 1200fps, because it LIKES it there and shoots well.

[rodwha]

It was asked earlier why not 1,000fps, why the extra velocity? Deer aren't THAT hard to kill, well, here is one *very good* reason to push the WFN to 1150 ~ 1200fps, because it LIKES it there and shoots well.

Well, not exactly. To my thinking a bullet that will certainly exit doesn't really need to go any faster unless it were designed to expand rapidly.

I'm curious the comparison of the bullets you speak of doing much better traveling ~200 fps faster. I've seen how Kaido's 240 and 255 grn version of Lee's 255 grn bullet do rather well under 1000 fps. I don't know of anyone using them beyond maybe 25 yds and so it's possible the lower velocity wouldn't be so effective at 50 yds or more for those who are that good.

[sac]

I looked on LBT's web site and don't see the OWC-PB mold on the web site. do you have to call?

[rodwha]

If all else fails or it is of interest to you look at AccurateMolds.com You can order a current or create your own (no additional cost), which is what I did for my cap and ball WFN bullets.

[Drm50]

My favorite deer pistol is a S&W m25-83/8". I have a 6" and a 71/2" BH. I also have WC, SWC &
RnFp molds. I found all three do the best with 255 RnFp / Unique at 850 fps. The S&Ws also
shoot the 242g WC very well at these velocities. I have 270 & 300 gr SWC molds, they don't give
me the accuracy of the RNFP. The 255RNFP shoots so well I have never fired a jacketed bullet
since I started using them. I did shot one deer with a 242WC, because I grabbed the wrong ammo. Deer didn't complain- it was dead. I don't carry 41 or 44 anymore for deer hunting, the
45 does it no problem.

[Blackwater]

A buddy of mine was given a Colt SAA when he was 11, IIRC, and he grew up in the swamps, shooting everything from squirrels, coons, gators, deer and hogs with it, and mostly, at least when he was very young, he used BP loads from bulk 25 lb. kegs. He'd load up 5 or more, and sally forth, never complaining about the results. Mostly, he used factory RNFP's with the little flat tip. But his grandad taught him how to shoot and hit what he was aiming at, and WHERE to put those bullets, and nothing ever went far with those old BP loads and the RNFP factory type bullets. It's really all in where you hit 'em far more than what you hit them with. Since, he's done a lot of cropping on permits for local farmers and he's used everything that was at hand at the time, from .22 LR pistols (revolvers and autos) to .375 H&H (only once!) and he's never had a problem killing deer. He just keeps his shots and placement commensurate with what he's shooting. And it's really just that simple. Me? I'm a lover of overkill, but I don't kid myself about why I'm shooting what I'm shooting. And mostly, it's just tradition. I have 6 '06's now! One's an old pre-A3 '03 Sfpld. that I made the stock for, and it's my favorite. But do I need all that? Nope. I just LIKE shooting it.

And nobody I've ever known who has used the LC and could shoot has ever complained about the results. Only .45 I've ever heard complaints of is the ACP and then, only when using 230 gr. hardball. Even it worked fair, but was nowhere near as definitive as a flat nosed bullet from the same gun. Some HP's in that caliber have in the past been penetration challenged. Cast? Never!

My friend is now rather recoil challenged due to an old spinal cord injury (tearing of the sheath in the neck area), and otherwise health challenged, and guess what his choice for back in the woods is? A Bkhk .45 LC 4 5/8" with cast 250's, eihter RNFP's with sizable flat or SWC's, and he isn't particular which is in stock these days, he just goes forth with whatever's available. He's recently worked up some 1,000 fps loads with the 200 SWC's and he's killed enough deer with those to know they'll do fine. The gun seems to like them even better (for accuracy) than the 250's, and the recoil seems to be a bit less. And they'll stack them on top of each other as long as you want to keep shooting.

I went with the .44 Spec. since I had plenty of molds in that caliber, just as a convenience. I figured it'd save me some $$$, but I've long wanted another LC. The old model Ruger I had wasn't accurate, and I suspect it was just a case of mismatched throats and barrel, and now I believe I could have fixed that gun. Loved it, but let it go because there's no place here for guns that won't shoot well. All us gun guys have sob stories of the jewels we let get away, and that's one of mine. I wish I knew where that gun is now!

The old LC has been doing splendid work on everything that even hints at being susceptible to its capabilities, and there've been very, very few complainers. Some just want more because they can get it. Others just can't shoot. But none really NEED any more than the old LC. It just does what a gun is supposed to do, and it's rather pleasant about the doing of it. What more could a man ask for, really?

[tdoyka]

i'm still struggling if i want a ruger blackhawk in 45 colt or a snider enfield mark ll in 577. but anyway, in the 45 colt why not use a 270gr saa?

45 Colt, RCBS 82092, 270gr, SAA - Montana Bullet Works

[rodwha]

Looks like a great bullet!

I've had Accurate make me a similar bullet with wider driving bands that weighs 285 grns, but I've not been able to work with it in my Ruger.

[DougGuy]

i'm still struggling if i want a ruger blackhawk in 45 colt or a snider enfield mark ll in 577. but anyway, in the 45 colt why not use a 270gr saa?

45 Colt, RCBS 82092, 270gr, SAA - Montana Bullet Works

I got away from K type LSWC designs when I recut the forcing cones in my Rugers to 11 degrees, the sides of the WFN boolits are near bouts parallel and there is a gentler less deforming transition from the cylinder thoat into the bore whereas the K type you have this square front driving band that if it hits the forcing cone it wipes 1/3 of that front band away before it makes it into the bore. The wider meplat IMO does more damage than the smaller K type meplat, and this is why Veral designed those little oilcans. They do quite well in a deer and no HP needed.

Scott just call Veral at LBT and leave him a message. It might take a day or two but he will call you.

At 25-40yds most hunters wouldn't know the difference and the deer sure won't. The paradox is that you have all these different opinions, too many for one person to load ammo and create a scenario where each opinion would be tested and then results posted. A guy comes looking for an all around good boolit for deer, I am going to tell him what works best IMO. Not knocking anyone else but by the time these threads run their course, many newbs are totally lost as to which direction to turn, even seasoned reloaders and hunters have to second guess much of the information implied.

[rodwha]

I got away from K type LSWC designs when I recut the forcing cones in my Rugers to 11 degrees, the sides of the WFN boolits are near bouts parallel and there is a gentler less deforming transition from the cylinder thoat into the bore whereas the K type you have this square front driving band that if it hits the forcing cone it wipes 1/3 of that front band away before it makes it into the bore. The wider meplat IMO does more damage than the smaller K type meplat, and this is why Veral designed those little oilcans. They do quite well in a deer and no HP needed.

Scott just call Veral at LBT and leave him a message. It might take a day or two but he will call you.

At 25-40yds most hunters wouldn't know the difference and the deer sure won't. The paradox is that you have all these different opinions, too many for one person to load ammo and create a scenario where each opinion would be tested and then results posted. A guy comes looking for an all around good boolit for deer, I am going to tell him what works best IMO. Not knocking anyone else but by the time these threads run their course, many newbs are totally lost as to which direction to turn, even seasoned reloaders and hunters have to second guess much of the information implied.

And I'm one of those. I have no firsthand experience nor have been with people who handgun hunt (my old boss has shot a small rattle snake with his .357 in the head).

And so I'm curious what ~1200 fps does better that <1000 fps doesn't.

[DougGuy]

And I'm one of those. I have no firsthand experience nor have been with people who handgun hunt (my old boss has shot a small rattle snake with his .357 in the head).

And so I'm curious what ~1200 fps does better that <1000 fps doesn't.

More damage. More prominent wound channel, more likely to fully penetrate even after hitting bone, any expansion will be greater at 1200fps than at 1000fps, MANY heavy boolits in .44 and .45 won't stabilize at a slower velocity because they don't get enough spin. The boolit MUST have spin to stabilize. This will make groups open considerably even at 25yds if the boolit doesn't gain enough spin. Plus it gets to the target before the sound gets to the target's ears. A deer or other game on high alert can react and move in a SURPRISINGLY quick fashion. 1200fps is supersonic. 1000fps is not. There isn't much time there but if the sound gets to their ears first, odd things can happen You might get a kick out of this one..

I was sitting at near dusk, the hour where shadows play tricks on your eyes, back to a fence post watching a paddock hoping a deer would cross. Saw something coming across, the scope gathered enough light to see it was the farm cat headed home. Shortly after, something else came across, run a bit then stop and sniff, run a bit, etc. It was a fox, stalking the kitty cat. I put the crosshairs on him and followed him thinking "buddy you ain't getting no pu$$y tonite son, not the farm cat anyhow."

He got into a bare dirt spot with a cowpie on one side and stopped to sniff when I laid into him with the .308 M77. Had the scope zeroed on his shoulder, the very instant the shot broke, he looked up in my direction and saw the muzzle blast. I never even saw him run! I never even saw his shadow! He kicked the afterburner in and was GONE! I walked the 400' to where he had been, laid my head down on the boolit strike in the dirt, and gauged the height where the fox had been standing. The shot was true, I didn't miss. It took slightly more than 1/6th of a second for the boolit to travel 400' and in that time, he was quick enough to react and outrun a 180gr boolit.

I doubt a deer could move that fast, but if one can jump a bowstring at 20yds they can sure jump enough to spoil a shot at 40yds from a revolver. I like the boolit to arrive ahead of the sound.

[rodwha]

I can certainly understand how more can/is viewed as good. I felt the same way viewing the .44 Mag as the most efficient (cost wise) cartridge giving the capability of delivering the oomph well out to beyond further than I could accurately shoot (and having a compatible carbine round).

Quite frankly I've considered buying an aftermarket cylinder for my Ruger giving me the ability to achieve ~700 ft/lbs or so. But I truly wonder what the difference would really be, and if what my OEM cylinder can deliver is more than adequate I've wonders if it's needed/wanted.

I'm curious what the difference is that you've noticed. You mentioned more damage and a more pronounced Lund channel. What are we talking about? Obviously it's visually noticeable, but in what way?

[DougGuy]

That part would be something you just have to shoot a few with a WFN to see firsthand and you wouldn't likely go back. They are just as dead when they go down, but the less energy the less wound channel they go farther before they die. 44man can show some pics of deer shot with these style boolits, although he pushes them more than I want to push mine.

The ones I have taken with the .44 magnum have had holes in the chest you could drop a baseball through. (Not REALLY but it sure looked that way!) They went about 5 yards no more. Most have been neck shots and dropped where they stood.

I have yet to take game with these WFN boolits I have been testing in the medium framed Vaquero but 700ft/lbs is easily doable in Schofield brass, under the 23,000psi pressure ceiling of the gun. Should be even easier to do in .45 Colt brass, you don't need a special cylinder at all, just have yours throated to .4525" and roll with it.

Example: 45 Colt, 250 gr @ 1250 fps, Momentum = 44.6 lb-f/s – Muzzle Energy = 868 ft lbs

What Ruger do you have, and is it a 2 or 3 digit prefix in the serial?

[shoot-n-lead]

I doubt a deer could move that fast, but if one can jump a bowstring at 20yds they can sure jump enough to spoil a shot at 40yds from a revolver. I like the boolit to arrive ahead of the sound.

A bullet at 1000fps is 3x as fast as an arrow.

If a shot is fouled on a deer at 40yds...999 times out of 1000...the shooter will be responsible, not the speed of the bullet.

[rodwha]

My Ruger is a percussion Old Army. The factory cylinder with higher performance powders achieves ~500 ft/lbs of energy whereas the ClassicBallistixs cylinders can achieve no less than another 100 ft/lbs as the chambers (cylinders) are deeper.

I eventually went to neck shooting deer with the .270 Win but now that I have a .50 cal muzzleloader I'm concerned the effects won't be the same as I highly doubt I'd get quite the hydrostatic shock.

[DougGuy]

A bullet at 1000fps is 3x as fast as an arrow.

If a shot is fouled on a deer at 40yds...999 times out of 1000...the shooter will be responsible, not the speed of the bullet.

Likely very true but at 1000fps, it takes .08333 or 1/12th of a second for a boolit to go 40yds. The fox I mentioned earlier in this thread had enough time to completely evade the boolit strike from a standstill in only .1666666 or 1/6th of a second. Just sayin'

Well heck rodwha, all this talk is a good excuse for you to bring home a New Vaquero or a New Model Blackhawk Flattop in .45 Colt!

[rodwha]

Quick movement is why, when shooting for the neck of a deer, I always targeted the first third from the body as it doesn't move so quickly.

[sixshot]

DougGuy nailed it on the velocity with the WFN if you want to stabilize it. Going slower & shooting very far you will see the difference real quick most times.
Neck shooting is very deadly & very risky, it can work but it can also fail very badly in an instant. Everyone has a different opinion on it but especially with a sixgun its really taking a chance. Not much rib meat on a deer & a much bigger kill area, just my opinion.

Dick

[rodwha]

I doubt I'd try a neck shot with a revolver, though I also haven't proven to myself I could do so outside of 25 yds offhand. I'm not quite a pistolero. Maybe with a good rest, which is what I'd look to do if it were a primary weapon.

I made a short for weight 285 grn WFN bullet for my pistol but I'm not so sure I can get to 850 fps with it. Another reason for the deeper chambers of the aftermarket cylinder...