Stippling vs Checkering

[cainttype]

I've seen "good stippling" on quality firearms, the earliest was a bullseye 1911 built by Jim Clark in 1961....

That said, stippling can be effective... and is much easier to cover up any eventual bumps and scuffs that a field rifle will accumulate.

I can not even entertain the idea that any form of stippling even remotely approaches the skill level of real quality checkering... If you do, then I have to believe that you have no real idea what quality checkering really is.

"Stipple bashing"?... Since when is the word "effective" used to bash anything?
It is true that QUALITY checkering is a fairly rare thing, and very few "gunsmiths" have the skills to excell at it... I think your 1-20 estimate is far too generous unless you're referring to moderate skill levels.
In this age of black rifles, it is understandable that opinions on quality wood, and what is the best option for finishes would have wildly varying opinions.

Fine checkering being viewed as art is nothing new.
I am familiar with "good stippling", but since art is always subject to opinions I have to admit... I do not consider, even really well done, stippling as artistic as high quality checkering... never will.

[waksupi]

I love how this entire thread has become awash with opinion and stipple bashing. Mostly by those who have no clue what a very nicely stippled rifle looks like. I think there is this gap in opinions for a good number of reasons, mainly exposure. People are basically drawn to what they view as better. While opinions are still just that I guess, from my perspective and being able to do both with equal quality and efficiency I don't see a need to love one and hate the other. No matter what is said here, I am still leaning towards stippling these stocks. Now actually more than ever to show some of the folks here what a quality stock, of excellent quality wood looks like with a quality custom stippling job applied. I'm not sure most here that have commented negatively have ever seen one. I will add that if they had seen one and especially handled it very much and didn't like it simply for aesthetical reasons, then that I can understand. A person wants what a person wants, now if someone wants to make the comparison that they prefer checkering over stippling on the basis of function, I have to call BS on that one. That person isn't speaking from enough experience to have an opinion based on reality and is just disagreeing to be disagreeable. So I guess what I am trying to say is this. Those so staunchly opposed to stippling to the point of making rude comments about the quality of the gunsmith that would apply such a finish are really making a fool of themselves. The fact is that there is only possibly one in twenty gunsmiths that can ACTUALLY checker a gunstock at all! Most have little to no idea how to do it and we are talking about qualified, well known custom gunsmiths. Most send the stocks out to a stock maker who can do it for them . And as far as "quality checkering" goes, you are lucky enough if you find someone who can do custom checkering at all. I don't know what those people can do, I just know what I can do.

Well, I've built a lot of rifles, and am smart enough to send stocks to John Reese at Custom Diamonds, Polson, Mt. to have checkering done.

[NoAngel]

The best stippling job out there still looks it was done by blind quadriplegic monkeys.
If one cannot checker [like me] then pay someone, leave it smooth or at the very least, horse tape for traction

Bubba never ceases to come up with inventive ways to produce turds.

[nekshot]

could leave the wood a wee bit heavy where you stipple in case you don't like it and want to sand down and checker. With proper borders it might be catchy!

[Tnfalconer]

Well, I've built a lot of rifles, and am smart enough to send stocks to John Reese at Custom Diamonds, Polson, Mt. to have checkering done.

There are lots of stockmaker/checkering specialists in Montana. That is just one of them. Montana seems to be a hot bed for good stock work and checkering. I just had a conversation with a very well know local gunsmith two days ago who was trying to get me to start taking more checkering work because of the severe lack of 'smiths capable of doing it. The ones that can don't have time to do anything else. The fact is unless they are specialists and charge an exorbitant rate to produce quality checkering, there is no money in it. That is what steers good smiths in other directions. The last stock I did for a customer I charged 275.00, traditional overlapped wrist and hourglass on the forearm. Took me most of a day to complete. Customer was thrilled, my other gunsmith buddies were not so thrilled as in their opinion I had given the work away. The ones local to me would rather spend their time making metal chips than messing with wood of any kind. As I said, there just isn't any money in it anymore.

[Tnfalconer]

If I had charged my regular shop rate it would have been closer to 500.00 to do the checkering on that particular rifle. Now that being said, that is about what most specialists charge to checker a simple pattern. Actually the going rate is about 450-600, just for the checkering work. Nothing else. Since I am slow at it and take my time, I didn't charge the full shop rate. And like others have realized I guess before me, the risk is extremely high with that type of work. There is little chance of fixing a major screw up or one slip of the file. Especially on exhibition quality stock wood.

[Rick Hodges]

Well my only experience with stippled stocks, other than just looking at them, was on a Walther 22lr target pistol. Compared to my S&W 41 it did not give as good a grip. That could have been a function of the overall grip shape, but it seemed smoother to my hand. I didn't like the feel of it and it looked like a dirty smudge on the grips of some otherwise good looking wood.

I don't know if it was high quality stippling or not, but I do know the pistol was over a grand back in the late 70's. You can keep your stippling if you like it. I will take checkering every time. I think it looks better, and provides a grip surface that is at least as good as stippling, particularly in cold weather while wearing gloves.

Plastic stocks ( I carry a S&W Shield with stippling) who cares.....the stippling helps with traction and there is no grain to cloud. Sorry I just don't see stippling as being on the same level with good checkering. It is a production expedient so they don't have to charge as high a price as they would with checkering.
If you like it go for it...if you like European skull mounts go for it, but don't try to tell me they are the product of the same level of skill and talent as the full tanned hide mount. If you like it go for it...

[NoAngel]

The ones local to me would rather spend their time making metal chips than messing with wood of any kind. As I said, there just isn't any money in it anymore.

THat's the reason guys like Roy Fishpaw can [and DO] name their price. His pistol grips are outstanding. people aren't doing it and the people who WANT it will pay dearly for it.

I have tried it. It was an abysmal failure and that's why I don't think it's all that exorbitant considering what it takes to do it right. AND, if you ain't gonna do it right, just sand it smooth and apply a finish. Nothing more embarrassing than crooked, chipped and wonky checkering.......well except for stippling that is.

[Tnfalconer]

THat's the reason guys like Roy Fishpaw can [and DO] name their price. His pistol grips are outstanding. people aren't doing it and the people who WANT it will pay dearly for it.
.

I agree here, it's a lost art and the very few gunsmiths that are coming up now never learned how to do it to start with. It is barely touched on in the schools out there and basically the only way to learn is apprenticing under someone who does. This day and time apprenticeships are all but gone. No one wants to humble themselves enough to recognize that they have skills to learn from someone else. Most as soon as they graduate a school think they know everything. It's sad really. I learned the absolute hardest way possible, on my own with an excellent stock maker on the other end of a phone. With enough failure on cheap gun show stocks I learned, painfully. That extra effort to do something that honestly had little real monetary gain to me at the time was all a part of looking forward to being a better smith and what I call more "well rounded". These days guys specialize more than I have ever seen. They pick and work to their strengths and don't pay any attention to their weaknesses. One day it will be a service only rendered by machines, the days of hand cut or hand made anything are fading away as I type this.

[BAGTIC]

I don't see a 'need' for either. It is simply a choice of aesthetics. The human hand is a marvel that can grasp some amazingly slippery objects under the most strenuous of circumstances. If one is trying to hand a gun based solely on its friction coefficient they are holding it wrong.

[Geezer in NH]

If you like stippling you will love skateboard tape. Both are effective but the tape is better. Both are BUTT ugly IMHO but I have used both.

Pretty and effective is checkering when done at the right size per inch for the job. I do not checker well so if I want it I get to pay.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I like many others can't do the checkering,,, Yet. So when I had my Ithaca M37 rebuilt buy Ithaca the wood I had bought for it in 1986 got sent to a local guy I know who does high end shot guns.

He took the Fajen Wood which is nice and converted the Fore end with wings to Corn cob style with Win M12 pattern on it and the Buttstock got changed from Pistol grip to English style strait grip with a standard point patter on both sides . $600 and one week to finish and it was worth every cent. I might add that it is not perfect and I can find every single flaw however the level of craftsmanship is commensurate with the quality of the gun, and the gun as a whole looks damn nice.

It would not have been appropriate to stipple this gun.

Randy

[waksupi]

If I had charged my regular shop rate it would have been closer to 500.00 to do the checkering on that particular rifle. Now that being said, that is about what most specialists charge to checker a simple pattern. Actually the going rate is about 450-600, just for the checkering work. Nothing else. Since I am slow at it and take my time, I didn't charge the full shop rate. And like others have realized I guess before me, the risk is extremely high with that type of work. There is little chance of fixing a major screw up or one slip of the file. Especially on exhibition quality stock wood.

You need to get out of Great Falls, things are a lot cheaper over here in the Flathead country. I don't think we ever paid over $200 for a wood checkering job at Serengeti, and I doubt many can come close to the work we sent out the door, as we had a finest quality rating. We were working on wood that was $3000+ before it was ever laid out.

[cainttype]

You need to get out of Great Falls, things are a lot cheaper over here in the Flathead country. I don't think we ever paid over $200 for a wood checkering job at Serengeti, and I doubt many can come close to the work we sent out the door, as we had a finest quality rating. We were working on wood that was $3000+ before it was ever laid out.

I'd enjoy seeing some examples of that work, waksupi. A collection of that type of work deserves it's own thread.
I had never thought about it missing before, but a nice collection of examples of high quality wood/woodworking could be stickied as a great referrence. Not a how-to thread, just finished examples to admire.
I'm sure there are many here that have never actually seen, let alone handled, top-notch stock work.

[Tnfalconer]

You need to get out of Great Falls, things are a lot cheaper over here in the Flathead country. I don't think we ever paid over $200 for a wood checkering job at Serengeti, and I doubt many can come close to the work we sent out the door, as we had a finest quality rating. We were working on wood that was $3000+ before it was ever laid out.

Those prices were quoted from the top three stock finisher/checkering specialists in the state I called them this last week. Those prices were just for checkering, no stock finishing. We have one local guy in great falls that actually does checkering for a decent price but his work is not what I would call top notch. If I could find someone to do the same quality checkering that I can do personally for 200 bucks I would let them do it for sure. I can't do it that cheap. It takes me too long to do it I guess.

[Tnfalconer]

post their info here or pm it to me. If they are doing quality work for that kind of price, it would be the cheapest I have ever heard of. Not only in the state but in the west. Post their information here or PM it to me and I will call them Monday morning.

[montana_charlie]

I love how this entire thread has become awash with opinion and stipple bashing. Mostly by those who have no clue what a very nicely stippled rifle looks like.

Your o/p didn't ask a question, it didn't request opinion, and it didn't actually do anything other than describe your indecision at the time.
With no discernable 'purpose', the thread meandered into whatever shape the responses caused.
If you had a 'goal' of some kind, you should have stated it ... so the thread could evolve in that direction.

Personally, I will accept stippling on a metal surface ... but not on wood.

[Tnfalconer]

You need to get out of Great Falls, things are a lot cheaper over here in the Flathead country. I don't think we ever paid over $200 for a wood checkering job at Serengeti, and I doubt many can come close to the work we sent out the door, as we had a finest quality rating. We were working on wood that was $3000+ before it was ever laid out.

OK here are some updates for you. So far you have named two companies. One in Polson as your go to guy, I checked. They charge 200-400.00 per piece for a basic two panel and go up from there. Basic checkering job, no custom work, is around 400.00 and up. Serengeti rifles, you mentioned also, doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for some years. The company that purchased that company retained the same stock makers and their basic checkering job is 750.00? So please tell me again where it is you are finding quality, custom checkering work for 200 bucks so that I can verify it. So far all I am coming up with is dead ends from your posts....

[waksupi]

OK here are some updates for you. So far you have named two companies. One in Polson as your go to guy, I checked. They charge 200-400.00 per piece for a basic two panel and go up from there. Basic checkering job, no custom work, is around 400.00 and up. Serengeti rifles, you mentioned also, doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for some years. The company that purchased that company retained the same stock makers and their basic checkering job is 750.00? So please tell me again where it is you are finding quality, custom checkering work for 200 bucks so that I can verify it. So far all I am coming up with is dead ends from your posts....

Well, I would say John was charging me the same as he always has. I know Gene at Kilimanjaro was paying the same. You think we don't get markup on something that is done outside the shop? Does volume matter? How many guns are you having done in a year?
It may have to do with attitude, too. I know you just called me a liar. Not appreciated coming from a jack leg amateur.

[Tnfalconer]

Ya know for someone who supposedly knows EVERYTHING, what you have posted here ends up being unverifiable and you're mad at me? Good luck with that. Now as far as amateur goes, well, I guess you get to have an opinion just like everyone else but once again you are about as wrong gets. As far as you being a liar and posting things that no one can verify, well if the shoe fits....lace it up and wear it!

If I had not made it clear in an earlier post, your "Opinion" is as valuable at this point as a fart in a bottle. Go sell senility somewhere else. The difference between you and I is that I know I don't know everything, you're just stupid enough to think you do.