Blackpowder & 243, 308, 223, 30-30 case capacity, velocity is it working?

[AJG]

I again tested my "dried" Black powder (75% KNO3 15%charcoal 10%table sugar) and it burns quicker but not nearly as quick as normal BP. Dried it at 40 degrees Celsius for 4 hs.
I believe the sugar is Messing it up. Now I dry normal recipe BP. We will see how it turns out.

[M-Tecs]

BP test cannon/test gujns are the preferred way to test.

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/...ack-powder.asp

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...r-quality.html

http://creagan.net/fireworks/blackpowder.html

[Oliver]

I've loaded a .30-30 with black powder for a lever gun. It worked okay, but I did not chronograph it. As I recall, it held just about 30 grains, but this was some years ago, so it may have been a bit more or less.

I do know, from muzzle-loader experience, that you _need_ a long barrel to get velocity. Black powder just does not burn super quick. There was good reason the old muzzle-loaders had long barrels. You may wish to factor this in when selecting a gun.

[Oliver]

Black powder is extremely hydroscopic, that is, it loves to absorb water. Oxygen is not the enemy, moisture in the air is. The companies that make black powder are a bit secretive about the exact formula. Charcoal is preferred over pure carbon because apparently it ignites easier. The "charcoal" commonly sold here in the US is actually mostly coal dust, with lots of other weird stuff in it. Get, or make, real charcoal if you are going to do this. Generally about 75% KNO2, 15% charcoal, and 10% suffer will work, but you should carefully experiment with exact ratios. To make the powder, mix each ingredient in enough water to make a sort of paste, then mix the pastes together. Add enough water to make it sort of stirrable, like wet cement or mud. Mix it very thoroughly and then pour it into a bunch of small glass or ceramic containers, an ounce or two each. I use old teacups because it pops out easily after drying.

Allow it to dry. You are now in the EXTREMELY DANGEROUS phase of this operation. Using tongs, put a few pieces in a ball mill with lead balls (non-sparking) and figure out how to tumble the mill from a safe distance; i.e. behind a heavy wall. If you survive, your gunpowder will be at least good enough for fireworks. I cannot overemphasize, however, that the odds of you killing or maiming yourself or anyone nearby are large. Do it outdoors and well away from everyone.

The commercial black powder companies coat their ground powder with graphite, as an anti-static protection. I have no idea how to do that.

Really. Buy some powder if at all possible. You will live longer and retain your limbs.

[AJG]

I do not want to make a "wet" recipe of Black Powder. Wet recipe have a big % of loss so it is not economical (I used to get about 10% of the initial weight since all other things are suspended in filter Cloth, etc.). As well the wet method is prone to burn the kitchen if you dry cook it, at least in my experience.

Ball milling is all I want to do (dry recipe). I use glass marbles for milling media. It is outside and should something happen I only make about 1 Kg (2 lbs) each time (used to make since all experiments failed).
I believe the sugar is Messing things up and in few hs we will see if the 70-15-10 recipe when dry is working any better (which I doubt).

[AJG]

Yes I believe the 30-30 will be the best Option for black powder rifle Shooting should my black powder work some day.
I like the Mossberg 464 SPX Lever gun in 30-30 since it has an adjustable stock.
As well my 38spl and 357 mag I will shoot with balck powder out of my Rough Rider 357 mag SAA.

[M-Tecs]

Actually BP is not hydroscopic but the fouling is somewhat hydroscopic. Two hundred year old BP is just as good as the day it was manufactured. Same for BP that was underwater. Just dry it and its fine.

The methods for making high quality BP are readily available. Any deviations from these method will yield lesser power. What you want or don't want doesn't change this simple fact. You want to use a substandard propellant to shoot at a stated distance the is not possible or realistic for the worlds best shooters using the finest equipment available. I don't do if you are simply trolling or if you are serious. If you are serious you need to take a very realistic assessment of what your realistic achievable goals are.

At best you may come close to equaling the power of current BP. If you can you will still be far short of your stated distance requirements.

[AJG]

just got back testing my 75-15-10 Standard formula BP after drying it for 4 hs at 40 degrees Celsius. IT DOES NOT WORK. No any better burn. It burns as slow as allways. For rocket fuel it may work well but never will propell an bullet out of the Barrel.
Ist probably the KNO3 fertilizer or wrong charcoal.

Givin' up?

[perotter]

perotter,

Which combination and how prepare KNO3 + table sugar?

I have tried it but it is a flop (does not work). KNO3 as fertilizer + table ugar all kinds of variations I have tried. It never worked. Burns way to slow and bullet allways get stuck in barrel

I use the one from the US Army TM 31-210 that you have. It worked for me from the first batch. But after that first batch, I realized that the method was nearly identical to how Ma had us kids make homemade fudge. By applying what I had learn as a kid about making fudge, the batches made after that were better.

If it didn't work for you, you likely don't have KNO3 fertilizer. If the US Army doesn't work and you can't buy KNO3, you might consider making the KNO3 directly from cold packs. The cold packs have to be the ones that use ammonium nitrate and not urea. If all you have down there are the urea ones and as far as I know, to make KNO3 from them you'll have to use the natural method of making KNO3 except you use that urea instead of urine, etc.

The US Army method won't work at all with NaNO3, as it never get hard/dry. NaNO3 is the fertilizer that is sold in the US as 'saltpeter'. Ammonium nitrate and sugar won't work either to make powder, but would with charcoal(doesn't need sulfur and has the power of smokeless powders).

[Tracy]

Don't worry about the proportions; 75:15:10 is just about right and deviating a bit makes little difference. I would start with the charcoal. Make it yourself in a retort (metal paint can works fine) of fast-growing wood. Not hardwood. Strip the bark off before you make the charcoal.

Ball mill all ingredients together dry, until you have a fine powder like flour. Then press it with a (very) little moisture in a hydraulic press. It should end up as a hard puck. Break that up and then try it. Pressing improves the burning speed.
Again, read the black powder making thread I linked. All this information is in there, including how to optimize your ball mill and what kind of media to use in it.

And the number one recommendation I can make is this: don't listen to purveyors of misinformation (on this forum and elsewhere, on and off the web) who haven't done it and therefore don't know what they are talking about.

[Tracy]

Perotter, what about the phase change of ammonium nitrate? It probably gets warm enough where he is.

[AJG]

climate is about average 95 degrees Farenheit up to way over 110 degrees Farenheit. Urea is readily availlable as fertilizer.

[Tracy]

Nope, too hot for ammonium nitrate. Urea won't work either. Looks like you're gonna have to make your own potassium nitrate.

[victorfox]

Did this DIY powder been sieved to which granulation?

[perotter]

Perotter, what about the phase change of ammonium nitrate? It probably gets warm enough where he is.

The simplest way to take care of the phase change is to use 10% of another nitrate in the mix. Without looking up the exact range, it is good down to around -40 to 180F. Also the burn rate and ignition is better. In Olin's test and method, the linear burn rate increased from around 0.95 to 1.1.

Normally one uses KNO3 for this. As one would have the ammonium nitrate, converting that into KNO3 is simple. But then, this wouldn't be black powder anymore.

[AJG]

Does not matter how that is called as Long it is gun powder and WORKS.

I granulated the powder to powder with a Hand mortar (such as you can find in Southamerica for making yuyos or stamped herbs for drinking in tea).

[ofitg]

AJG, here is another thread which might interest you -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ions-and-ideas

As Perotter hinted, some of these topics may not be appropriate for the Black Powder Cartridge forum....

[perotter]

AJG, here is another thread which might interest you -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ions-and-ideas

As Perotter hinted, some of these topics may not be appropriate for the Black Powder Cartridge forum....

No shortage of ways to skin the cat when it comes to DIY propellants. Comes down to safety, desired result, availability and time.

[Col4570]

I have a 32-40 martini Rifle,1 turn in 14 inches.I load with 3f BP,it takes exactly 40 grains with a 160 grain bullet.I would imagine that 30-30 would be near to my experience.Sorry can,t give Chrono figures but it is accurate enough.

[Tracy]

Nice rifle, Col!