.303's old worn rifling not cutting the paper patch

[gunwonk]

I've posted here before about trying paper patch in my old P-14 .303:

• First I sized to groove diameter (.3125). (Yes, now I know this is wrong.) Most of the bullets didn't spin, and keyholed. No such thing as a group.
• Next I sized to throat diameter (.316). (Uh oh, the throat is much bigger than the bore.) This time there was a 25 yard group, but signs of bullet tipping, so it likely wasn't going to work well at longer ranges.

This time I sized to throat diameter (.316"), and put a buffer (grits) between the powder and the bullet. I was thinking maybe the muzzle blast was messing up the base of the patch on exit, and thought to put a little space in there for the bullet to get clear first.

Results were a little better, still not sure it'll work at 100 yd., but I got curious and went hunting for the patch remnants. Here's a pic (below) of what I found. (That's green bar computer paper. The bars were crosswise to the bore, and the dark lines are smudge from the rifling lands.)

Looks like the P-14's rifling is worn all smooth, no more sharp edges, and doesn't cut the patch into segments, so pretty much the whole patch has to unwind after the bullet gets going.

Maybe I'll try winding the patches in both directions, to see if one's better.

[wrench]

I'm interested in your results, gunwonk. I'm experimenting with paperpatching for a Danish Krag, 8x58r, with very worn, rounded rifling.
Not getting great results, yet.

[nicholst55]

Might be time for a new tube for the old warhorse. http://criterionbarrels.com/p14-enfield

[Good Cheer]

Tried turning the patch 90 degrees to have the grain running the length of the boolit?

I have no idea which way the grain in your paper is running but the grain running axially down the length of the boolit oughta give the weakest least resistance to tearing and spinning off.

[m.chalmers]

Try to get a few 316299 pills to try. I bet they will work in the P14.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=31_285

[Huvius]

It does not look like the patch is stripping or not picking up the rifling at all. The rifling is well delineated on the patch.
Remember, Metford and Henry rifling were the standard in the PP era and they don't cut the paper patch as the sharp lands of Enfield rifling does.
The problem may be that your bore loosens up out toward the muzzle. If you have access to a set of pin gauges, see if your bore is uniform, tapers, or loosens from breech to muzzle.
I have found that a bore that gets bigger downstream from the breech may be a lost cause which is pretty common in 303s.
I was considering a double 303 once and the right barrel was .004" bigger at the muzzle than the left. Shot horribly in the right and great in the left...

[corbinace]

Try to get a few 316299 pills to try. I bet they will work in the P14.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=31_285

I have those in a GC form. Some of each, PCed, plain, sized before and after PC. I also have padded envelopes.

[docone31]

You should get confetti, not strips. For my #1 MKIII, I final size to .314. I presize to .308, then wrap twice, then size to .314.
I use Turtle wax to lube for sizing.

[barrabruce]

you haven't said what your bore diameter is yet.
If you plan to have the paper the same depth as the grooves I think you will do better.
303 to 312 = 9 thou roughly.
316-9 = 307 core diameter.
Just thinking you maybe sizing the bullet down but if the paper ends up thicker than the groove height it won't cut through it properly.

I'd size your paper patch offerings in a groove diameter sizer and see how larger a core you end up with...just like your barrell does.

A softer type paper like writing pad without more than a wipe with a rag with lube on it can help get the powdery dust effect more than a unwrapped wax impregnated paper.

Remember the odg used very shallow rifling.

Just a thought.

[montana_charlie]

Are you sure that the rifling is not full of leading?

[Old Coot]

TWo things that you might try: 1. Use plain computer paper to patch with. Patch wet let dry and size if you have to. That stuff confeti's like crazy. 2. Cut your patch strips long ways from the paper instead of across the top or bottom. You will be working across the grain of the paper instead of with the grain. 3. What direction is the twist of your barrel? If it is to the right patch the bullet with the nose to the right. If to the left just patch with the nose to the left. 4. De-prime your cases without resizing them. Patch a core so that it is a finger tight fit into the fired case mouth, and a little larger .003 to .005 than the bore.

I hope these ideas help you as much as they have helped me.
Brodie

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I also don't know which direction you are winding the patch, but choosing the direction which presents its edge to the airstream should help it unwind.

You don't mention whether those patches were picked up as close to the muzzle as other people's. Unless they were a lot further downrange, and most especially on or close to recovered bullets, I don't think the inaccuracy is necessarily anything to do with failure to cut the patch. Many of the most accurate long-range .450 match rifles had segmental rifling which was no better at this, if as good.

They used to have a Lee-Enfield at Woolwich which was used exclusively for testing straight nitrocellulose powder loads. It was fired until the gauges the barrel would accept were of a size, greatest at the breech and diminishing towards the muzzle, which few of us will ever see. But as long as thin-jacketed, flat-based bullets were used, it still achieved long-range groups which would be lost in the standard of shooting expected of the average conscript. I don't believe cast bullets would be at a disadvantage in such a bore. But the important thing is that it was unlikely to have been enlarged at the muzzle, either by careless cleaning or by very high terminal pressures.

Long ago I bought a P14 for rebarrelling, with a frosted but not dark or unduly worn bore. Just out of curiosity I tried using up various short ends of boxes of .308 jacketed bullets in its .313 grooved barrel. With the plainest of sheet-jacketed bullets accuracy was about as good as anyone could expect of a military rifle with the issue receiver sight. But with Nosler solid base boat-tails (an extremely good bullet when not abused.

[Driver man]

I also don't know which direction you are winding the patch, but choosing the direction which presents its edge to the airstream should help it unwind.

You don't mention whether those patches were picked up as close to the muzzle as other people's. Unless they were a lot further downrange, and most especially on or close to recovered bullets, I don't think the inaccuracy is necessarily anything to do with failure to cut the patch. Many of the most accurate long-range .450 match rifles had segmental rifling which was no better at this, if as good.

They used to have a Lee-Enfield at Woolwich which was used exclusively for testing straight nitrocellulose powder loads. It was fired until the gauges the barrel would accept were of a size, greatest at the breech and diminishing towards the muzzle, which few of us will ever see. But as long as thin-jacketed, flat-based bullets were used, it still achieved long-range groups which would be lost in the standard of shooting expected of the average conscript. I don't believe cast bullets would be at a disadvantage in such a bore. But the important thing is that it was unlikely to have been enlarged at the muzzle, either by careless cleaning or by very high terminal pressures.

Long ago I bought a P14 for rebarrelling, with a frosted but not dark or unduly worn bore. Just out of curiosity I tried using up various short ends of boxes of .308 jacketed bullets in its .313 grooved barrel. With the plainest of sheet-jacketed bullets accuracy was about as good as anyone could expect of a military rifle with the issue receiver sight. But with Nosler solid base boat-tails (an extremely good bullet when not abused.

You havent finished this post

[barrabruce]

Yeah what he said.
Nearly had me wanting to go out and buy a "worn out " 'ol 303 maybe a martini.
Well I was but they sold it before I got a round toit.

[gunwonk]

Wow, what a gracious plenty of good ideas. Thanks!! Please excuse the couple days of silence on my part, there's a lot of stuff to think about here. Also, there are a couple of different directions to go, which I'll post about separately.

Firstly,

The problem may be that your bore loosens up out toward the muzzle. If you have access to a set of pin gauges, see if your bore is uniform, tapers, or loosens from breech to muzzle.
I have found that a bore that gets bigger downstream from the breech may be a lost cause which is pretty common in 303s.

I don't have pin gauges, but using the mash-a lead-slug method (and earlier, some cerrosafe), and horsing about with a mic & calipers, I've measured:

• throat diameter -- .316"
• groove diameter (min, full length of barrel) -- .3125"
• bore diameter (min, full length of barrel) -- .307"
• groove diameter at muzzle -- .3135"
• bore diameter at muzzle -- .310"

This is a 5-groove barrel, so there may be a little windage in those numbers , but it looks like:

• There's some tromboning at the muzzle, more in the bore than in the grooves
• Surprise, I've only got about .003" of rifling overall

As for the latter. I was using two wraps of green bar computer printer paper, which is about .004"-.005" of paper. So ...

... if the paper ends up thicker than the groove height it won't cut through it properly.

Yep. (Now I'm gonna go think a little more. Thanks!)

[longbow]

While I have limited experience in paper patching, I'll share what I found with my guns.

I made a cylindrical mould that casts a 0.301" boolit for paper patching for my .308. It worked very well, with no sizing after patching, giving quite decent groups.

Then I got a Lee Enfield .303. I slugged the bore and determined I needed thicker paper for the 0.314" groove diameter so patched accordingly. No accuracy at all with the 0.301" core so I knurled the boolits up to 0.303"/0.304" (0.303" bore diameter) and got pretty decent accuracy.

If you have 0.307" bore then you should be using a 0.307"/0.308" boolit patched to groove diameter. Generally bore diameter to a thou or two over is recommended then patch to groove or a little over. In your case with large throat it may be best to patch to just under throat diameter.

While I can't say one direction of wrapping definitely works better than the other I am with Ballistics in Scotland on having the leading edge "into the wind" to help the paper unwrap. It just makes sense.

I paper patched for my .44 Mag Marlin as well and found that even with the microgroove rifling I got good patch release and good accuracy so I am not convinced that the rifling has to be sharp to cut the patch. The microgroove rifling is in very good shape but extremely shallow. I think the patch has to be compressed by the bore to be very tight onto the boolit to grip it well without skidding. I get confetti from the Marlin, not strips.

Like I said, I am not the most experience paper patcher around but that is what I found with my guns.

Longbow

[Old Coot]

If you want to get some accuracy out of this old rifle; you might consider patching to fit the THROAT not the barrel.

• throat diameter -- .316"
• groove diameter (min, full length of barrel) -- .3125"
• bore diameter (min, full length of barrel) -- .307"
• groove diameter at muzzle -- .3135"
• bore diameter at muzzle -- .310"

When you do the bullet will move around less and be straighter in the bore at ignition. More likely to go where you have aimed it. Don't worry about it being a little large for the barrel. It will squeeze down to fit and give you a better fit than you can produce with any die available.

Good luck
Brodie

[gunwonk]

Some progress.
I paper patched a few .3125" cores, using two wraps of dress pattern paper (.001", for an expected total diameter of about .3165"), then ran them through a .316" sizer die. (That's my throat diameter, as everyone suggests.) Here's a pic, dress pattern paper and 311410's:Attachment 175678

Using a light load of SR 4759, these shot into a 2 1/4" group at 50 yards. Nothing to brag about, but I got nice round bullet holes for a change, and the same rifle (and shooter ) was putting j-words into about 5" at 100 yards earlier in the day, so maybe that's about all I can expect.

I found the dress pattern paper used, at a thrift store. It mic'd about .001", and is fairly tough for something so thin, but being used it had been bent and folded some, and had a few microtears here and there. Wetting and rolling it onto the bullet was hit or miss, and I often tore up a patch or two before one would get all the way onto the bullet.

But two wraps was only about .002", which may have been what I needed when the rifling in this older P-14 is only about .003" deep. Still, quite a PITA.

I also tried tissue paper, also about .001" thick, but wet strength was even worse, and in the end I got about a 5" group at 50 yards (and not all holes quite round). My impression is that tissue paper is kind of mushy, even harder to handle, and maybe not strong enough to spin the bullet.

Following up on some previous discussion:

Are you sure that the rifling is not full of leading?

Yep, I've learned to watch for that. (But thanks!)

Tried turning the patch 90 degrees to have the grain running the length of the boolit?

I double checked my green bar computer paper, and it turns out that I did have the grain of the paper running along the length of the bullet. (Good to be sure, though.)

FWIW, the dress pattern paper doesn't seem to have much of a preferred grain direction. Go figure.

3. What direction is the twist of your barrel? If it is to the right patch the bullet with the nose to the right. If to the left just patch with the nose to the left.

I also don't know which direction you are winding the patch, but choosing the direction which presents its edge to the airstream should help it unwind.

While I can't say one direction of wrapping definitely works better than the other I am with Ballistics in Scotland on having the leading edge "into the wind" to help the paper unwrap.

The P-14 rifling is left hand twist, and it turns out that I did have the outside edge of the patch facing into the wind, both in my earlier computer paper patches, and (on purpose now) with the dress pattern paper. You can see the latter in the pic above, where I've put the left hand point of the patch on top of the 311410, which is how I wrapped them.

Earlier, I'd tried wrapping the computer paper patches the other way, and things got even worse, with obvious keyholing. (Don't think I posted about that.) But again, it's good to be sure.

I paper patched for my .44 Mag Marlin as well and found that even with the microgroove rifling I got good patch release and good accuracy so I am not convinced that the rifling has to be sharp to cut the patch. The microgroove rifling is in very good shape but extremely shallow. I think the patch has to be compressed by the bore to be very tight onto the boolit to grip it well without skidding. I get confetti from the Marlin, not strips.

I think I spotted some confetti while firing, but I couldn't find any after the fact. This dress pattern paper is about the same color as some of the dead grass at my range, so maybe it's not surprising that I didn't find any small pieces.

However, I also didn't find any big pieces -- as I had earlier with the thicker computer paper patches -- so maybe this is actually working.

You don't mention whether those patches were picked up as close to the muzzle as other people's.

I found the big chunks of computer paper (pic in the first post) about 6 feet in front of the muzzle.

As far as I know I'm the only one at my range who's paper patching. (Tsk.) Maybe if I can get things looking good, the idea will spread.

[gunwonk]

Tsk, last post lost the pic somehow. Here it is:

[gunwonk]

... where I've put the left hand point of the patch on top of the 311410, which is how I wrapped them.

Sorry, right hand point. RH. --> that way -->