Some basic questions from a newbe

[Oyeboten]

That is a wee bullet for patching but it can be done well enough. That comes from a fella that patched round balls with paper a few years back with success. It is a curious art, but fact of it is they shot well, and fast. Was up to around 2400 fps before it all fell apart at the 50 yard line. Betcha you never thought a .44 Mag could run that fast, hey? Near about 2200-2250 fps was the honey hole with those and when I wrapped the project up I asked myself, "Why?". Never got an answer. If I ever run across Ross Seyfried I'll ask him, he's the nut that got me started on it.

Your assessment about twist rates is correct, but if you ever get around to wanting a mould that casts smooth sides, get in touch with Steve Brooks at http://brooksmoulds.com/ He does top notch custom work and will meet spec pretty much dead center. Figure your dims, profile, and alloy, the result will rain bullets. Quick turn around as well. You might also want to fiddle a little with a stability calculator or other online resources when designing such things as conventional perceptions regarding bullet length/twist are a little off base for lead bullets. Has to do with density and form mostly and it packs more weight into less length. My long way of saying you can run heavier bullets in that rifle if you get over the thought they need to be all pointy ended and stuff. They will have a longer shank and be easier to patch as well.

Low tech, good info:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bi...&density=11.00

Lotsa ballistic gak...

http://www.jbmballistics.com/

Bullets on the lower section are a .30 caliber Brooks bullet. They cast .310 w/30:1 alloy, weigh 183.5 grains and are just a bit over 1" long. Calculated BC is .39 and performance supports that close enough I don't worry about it. 1050 fps at the muzzle and 1/2" wads at the 50 yard line is good enough for pigs. He offered to make this one smooth sided but patching was not really an option as it is used in a suppressed rifle. It could nonetheless be paper patched quite easily.

Thank you Digital Dan!

Since the Iron Sights of my 250 3000 SAVAGE Bolt Rifle are really pretty basic ( about like any pre War Sears .22 really ) and since my Eyesight is just 'Okay', I epect to be shooting to no more than 100 yards as for anhy hope my eyesight will be up to 'groups' of any merit.

With this in mind, I have been wondering about a DEWC with smooth sides, File Knurled maybe, and of course Paper Patched.

Sure, it'd slow down a little with that shape ( all meplat and so on ), but...it'd give more bearing for the Rifling to bite into, and I might be able to say, go with a 100 Grain or 110 Grain Boolit maybe ( I do not know, just wondering aloud ).

What do you think?


A ordinary 1/4 inch Drill Bit would be right on to .25 of an inch...which with two wraps of paper, is in the ball park for Diameter, and, I can configure the Drill Bit to be a flat bottom maker, or, just have a Boolit with a 12 degree 'cone' nose or rear...or just use a demountable bottom Plug for a true DEWC result.

With this thought in mind, I could basically just re do any old Lyman or other basic Mold which is less then .257, or, if room to do so, just add my own cavity to a general old .36 Cal round Ball Mold, which ought to have enough room I think to add my own Cavity to...and then modify the Sprue Cutter Plate for that.

Would this be worthwhile do you think?

[marlinman93]

Thanks for the great info Digital Dan! I've never paper patched a bullet, but will soon begin with the purchase of an old Ballard Long Range rifle in .44-100 Ballard caliber. I'm told by the seller the mold that comes with it is for a paper patched bullet, so I guess it's time to learn too! Then I need to determine a decent smokeless powder/charge to also use with this caliber.

[Digital Dan]

You fellas are a hoot, I'm smiling here.

Oyeboten, if you've got the knack you can pretty much do what you want mould wise. I don't think the DEWC is your best form as wad cutters are known to suffer accuracy issue out past 50 yards or so, and it might be a serious problem in the transonic velocity zone. Might you consider putting some form of a point, be it round nose or a cone on the front end it might just roll. When I mentioned "pointy" bullets above I was referring to typical jacketed bullet designs like boat tail spitzers. Too, if you have the moxie to work on a mould block with machine tooling, you might just consider spec'ing the whole thing out and make a cherry to cut a brass mould blank. Lot easier than carving on iron I hear. Brass is a fine mould material if properly finished. Be doing a little background work on those links provided earlier and make sure your bullet isn't too long or it will tumble no matter what you do. Stability imparted by rifling is a matter of bullet length, not weight, 7 days a week.

Slug your barrel, get the dims and let your ambition be your guide.

MarlinMan, you have fun with that old Ballard, nice piece of work they are. Just .02 cents but you ought to just surrender to Lord Black with that thing. Honest to be, BP is easier to clean than smokeless, the pressures are perfectly compatible with lead and old steel. Fella might plumb shocked at how accurate BP patched bullets can be, and easy it really is. 1.5 to 2 FG and you'll roll to glory.

[Lead pot]

Thanks for the great info Digital Dan! I've never paper patched a bullet, but will soon begin with the purchase of an old Ballard Long Range rifle in .44-100 Ballard caliber. I'm told by the seller the mold that comes with it is for a paper patched bullet, so I guess it's time to learn too! Then I need to determine a decent smokeless powder/charge to also use with this caliber.

Marlinman.
The .44-100 Ballard is a great cartridge. I shoot several .44's and they are great shooters.
From left to right is the .44-77, .44-90 bn, the .44-100 and the .44-75 Ballard.
What your thinking to do with the large capacity .44-2.8 (.44-100) Ballard loading it smokeless is a potential disaster to the rifle and mainly to you and bystanders close to you. Take my friendly advice and just load a full load of black in that case if that rifle is in good shape. Ballards are not the strongest especially the old cast frames. I was standing just to the left when this one let go with a .40-65 chamber. It was not a pretty site.






And it's not just the old rifles. Here is a Pedersoli loaded with a load of smokeless with a wad over the powder.


And here is what is left of a High Wall.


Just think about it.

[Oyeboten]

Indeed Lead pot...

One of the many fine things which can said of Black Powder Metallic Cartridge, is that one is safe from inadvertent 'double charges' or from misadventure via too high a loading density of a wrong Powder type.

I guess if one compresses a full charge of 4 F, one might be in trouble of course...but, if staying with 2 F, it'd be hard to ever go wrong so long as the case is full and the compression is good.

I expect those misadventure images are showing either double charges of some Smokeless, or, that someone charged with a different Smokless than thay had calculated for.

Not good..!

[Oyeboten]

I stubbed a Toe on a Mold today, and it is an old "IDEAL" 257 420 which is for casting the 65 Grain Gas Check Boolit.

I do not know how well this will work in my 1920 SAVAGE .250 3000, but, at least the diameter is about right anyway.

It already has a Boolit Cast and stuck in it, and bound in the Sprue cutter, which I guess I will have to melt out.

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

Looking to the old list Table of "IDEAL" Molds, I do see they had several other ones for .257, with this being the lightest, and most not being Gas Check kinds...so, I will keep looking.

[Digital Dan]

Naw, that bullet ain't stuck, it was left there on purpose. Put the mould together, attach it to handles and whack that sprue plate with a 1" wood dowel. It'll cut the sprue. Open the mould, bullet should fall out.

[Oyeboten]

I just warmed the Sprue Cuter and things let go just fine.

I do not know what this little bitty 60 Grain .257 Boolit was meant for...25 20 maybe??

But, the more I look at it, the more it seems unsuited for my interest in Paper Patching for my 250 3000.

What is a fellow to do if wanting a Mold for casting a no lube groove Boolit?

Make it one's self, or have it made?

PP need to be flat Bottom I think...and, for these speeds, really should have something for an aerodynamic Nose I recon.

How heavy/long can I go without finding instability woes?

Do I just have to try it and see?

A Mold with a 'Plug' would allow me to change length/weight...so, I think that would be a good way to go.

[richhodg66]

I don't know much about paper patching, but a Savage 1920 in .250 is a treasure. I have a Model 1920 in .300 which is a good shooter, unfortunately, it's been reblued and has an unoriginal stock, still looks OK. The good news is it has one of the Lyman receiver sights designed specifically for the 1920, which are rare as hen's teeth.

I believe you're correct about that bullet being for the .25-20. I'd say delay the paper patching and cast a few of those to try for a light plinking load, then you can shoot the rifle while you get all the stuff together to paper patch.

[Oyeboten]

I am thinking I can likely make a good Mold for some experimental Boolits, by simply re shaping a Metric 6.5 mm Twist Drill to have a curved shortish pointy end, and of course using it in a Drill Press to make my Cavity in some old Lyman Mold or other, which has enough room for it to be added.

I might be able to have this be a Nose Pour with a very small flat 'nose' end, allowing me to have a Base Plug then to vary the length/weight.

Since I do not want or need any Lube Grooves, I think this ought to work alright.

A 6.5 mm Twist Drill is about .255 of an inch, being then only .002 shy of my supposed .257 Bore.

I have not slugged the Bore yet, but I will some time soon.

But, if .255 ish ( or .256 easily if I do not squeeze the Mold Handles real tight ) might just be alright then once Paper Patched.

Granted, sending off to have a Mold made to my spec, would be a nice thing to do, and for $260.00 or so, I hate to gamble when I really have no idea how long or heavy I can go with my rifling, nor what nose shape would be best.

So, I will send off for a handfull of Metric 6.5 mm Twist Drills, and, go from there, and see what I can learn.

An old 'Lyman' Mold for .36 Calibre Ball, would have enough room for adding a few of these I think...and if I spoil anything, it would be no loss to the World or Posterity.