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Thread: Official Shiloh Sharps Image Thread

  1. #241
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hey, Bent, to be sure i put my slippers on, went to shop, wrote down all the #'s i could find.
    Top of barrel Shilo Rifle Mfg. Co.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,caliber 45 2 1/10 ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Montana 1889/1989 Centennial,,,,,,,,,, OLD Reliable.
    Under forearm ( yup, took it off) # 3331---45---70______2 6/10____2 4/10 _____2 1/2(?) (how do they stamp those # so small)
    Serial# C. 285xx, so much for not using my glasses (and brain).
    I have never wanted to own a 45/70, I have 76 toggle links, BUT!!!! this rifle is really nice, hefty, eye appealing (sorry wiping slobber off) I just don't want to do PP, the nipple is still in very good shape, some screws are (can i say %^*wed-up) buggered up, bluing still nice, been mis-handled some. That Brass ring (it looks like brass) is actually the end of the barrel chamber, it is a percussion rifle. So, the question,,,, can it be converted to except cartridges ? Bent, i sure do thank you for your reply.

    coffee's ready, Hootmix.

  2. #242
    Boolit Buddy
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    Sounds like this is a 45-70 Shiloh. Sounds like a separated case stuck in the chamber. Might want to have Shiloh look at it, may have been messed with, may have seen some overpressure loads.

  3. #243
    Boolit Buddy

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    That's a puzzle. The barrel is marked as a cartridge gun (45-2-1/10 or .45-70), but it has a percussion breechblock in it? Sounds like someone has done some home 'smithing, either trying to make a percussion gun out of a cartridge rifle, or has perhaps swapped a cartridge barrel onto a percussion rifle.

    The fact that the barrel is marked "Shiloh" and "Old Reliable" both puts it into the era when Shiloh was building rifles in Montana, and C. Sharps was the marketing agent. That relationship dissolved in the early 90s, I think(?).

    Any chance you could post some pictures?
    Running the ridges and riding the rivers of the Southwest Virginia Appalachians

  4. #244
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    OK! trying pics (actually, my grandson), let's see ??

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    Now! let's talk ...

    more coffee, Hootmix.

  5. #245
    Boolit Buddy

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    Interesting photos, thank you.

    I don't have a lot of experience with the percussion Sharps rifles, although I know more about the cartridge guns. But my best guess is still that someone has either swapped the barrel or the breechblock - one of those parts is not original to that rifle, with the barrel being marked for a cartridge. I do know that some of the percussion Sharps used a "floating" brass ring to seal against the breechblock, but they were problematic because they tended to seize up. I don't know from the photos if that's what the brass in your breech is, or if it's a plug someone made to convert a cartridge barrel to percussion.

    Just my best guesses. Hopefully someone who knows more will chime in.

    You may be able to contact Shiloh directly and ask them to run the serial number. They should be able to tell you if the gun was built as as an 1863 (percussion) or 1874 (cartridge) model.

    Would it be possible to get photos of the barrel markings, and the sides of the receiver?

    Good luck!
    Last edited by Woodtroll; 03-26-2022 at 12:03 PM.
    Running the ridges and riding the rivers of the Southwest Virginia Appalachians

  6. #246
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    Well, it’s definitely a percussion breechblock. Shiloh used to make “Sporting models” of the 1863 pattern in calibers smaller than the military .52 caliber, so this could be one of them. But I’ve never seen a brass barrel insert like that. The Lawrence gas-check system used a steel plate with a rear-facing spigot closely fitted into the breechblock with a short steel chamber in the barrel breech that could slide back and forth. Firing the gun would push the block plate forward and the chamber insert backward, pinching them together and sealing the gas leak (somewhat) out of the block/barrel joint. Until things got gunked up, and then it would leak and stick unless managed properly. I find that filling the breechblock cavity with tallow allows 40 or so shots before I have to take the block out and wipe things off. There is usually still enough tallow in the cavity so a few more shots can be fired until the messing around outweighs the shooting, and it’s time to clean up and go home.

    I would think trying this with a brass insert would eventually result in swelling and sticking of the brass, not to mention corrosion. On my Pedersoli Berdan, I slop in the Ballistol/water and stick a test tube brush in the sliding chamber, and twist and pull and wet down until the fouling has dissolved and it slides back and forth easily again. Then I wipe as much off the visible part as I can, and continue with patches until I figure the front of the slide is similarly clean. You could try that with that brass thingy and see if it comes loose. If it’s a Lawrence system, it should pull back as far as the breech mortise will allow, but it shouldn’t come out, unless the barrel is removed.

    Modern re-enactors are not made of the tough stuff that the original sharpshooters were, and their gripes and complaints about percussion Sharps management has founded a cottage industry (and some factory “improvements”) seeking to eliminate sticky operation after a few shots. Check out the 1863 section of the Shiloh website and the guns section of the N-SSA site for particulars. I’ve been through both in my quest to get my Berdan replica going, and most of the “fixes” I saw involve O-ring seals in the block plate. Never never seen a brass breechpiece in the barrel before, but maybe somebody cobbled together his own “sure-fire” fix.

    As for the other stuff:

    1989 would be a very early Shiloh Products rifle, one of the Wolfgang Droege jobs out of Farmingdale, NY. Does the action or barrel have an address like that, or a small wolf’s head stamped anywhere? The barrel underside stamping is odd, too. Either somebody needed to be reminded that the same caliber barrel could be chambered for several shell sizes (unlikely, in this country) or maybe it’s a commemorative barrel off something else that somebody grafted onto their percussion Shiloh.

    Yes, you can convert a percussion Sharps rifle to metallic cartridge; the original company did hundreds of thousands of them for the Army. You need a correctly fitting breechblock with a firing pin, and a chambering or reline/chambering for the barrel. Shiloh of Big Timber fixes up a lot of originals, and their own products, and those of the predecessor company, so you might give them a call and see what they can do.

    The mangled screws should be re-slotted or replaced. Every one of them in the action innards needs removal for cleaning, especially the cleanout screw, which can be a real bugger to get out after a shooting session.

  7. #247
    Boolit Buddy

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    Bent Ramrod, you sure know a lot more about the percussions than I do!

    I am pretty sure, though, that Mr. Droege had moved to Montana by the mid-80s. The Bryan family took over from Mr. Droege early 90's (1991, maybe?). Not that this helps figure out the rifle, but I'm glad I'm not the only one scratching my head!
    Running the ridges and riding the rivers of the Southwest Virginia Appalachians

  8. #248
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    Back on post #211 & #221, Bouteselle, has a plate (w/ pics), removed from the block, how do i remove the plate. I removed a buggered screw from the left side, but the plate is still stuck.

    hav'n coffee, Hootmix.

  9. #249
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yep, Shiloh barrel. The Montana centennials were 1874 pattern cartridge rifles built
    in 1989 just after Shiloh moved to Big Timber. The rest is some Bubba's experiment it seems.

  10. #250
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    Man Dry, do that mean i have to call my rifle " Bubbet'a"? Well i got the brass gas ring honed flat (someone had used a file and filed at an angle, so the top was thicker than the bottom, using Magic Marker and a porcelain hone w/ lite oil cleaning every 50 strokes. It now slides up to closed position, does not have any movement (wiggle), thanks to folk here i'm learning. I can see me converting it to a 45-60.

    All that coffee paid off, Hootmix.

  11. #251
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    I stand corrected on the dates. (It’s all getting hazy, the last century...)

    The block plate joint should be the thinnest line, hard to see, 1/8” or so from the block face, going partway down the sides of the block, and across the top and between the block “legs” that come out the bottom when the action is opened.

    Hold the block in a vise so the plate is off the jaws. A cheap wood chisel is sharpened and the edge carefully placed along the crack between plate and block at top, along the two bumps at the right and left. A few very gentle taps with a light wood mallet or screwdriver handle should open the crack just a tiny bit. Stop there, reposition the block upside down, and do the same to the bottom. Then one side and the other.

    Don’t get eager on any side. The nearly invisible joint will become a less-invisible joint, then a hairline crack, then a larger crack as you go round and round, but don’t try any prying or extreme pounding. The plate on my rifle seems to be glass hard, and the spigot is fit as tightly into the opening in the block as the plate is around the outside. I can’t imagine if the plate is bent or broken that the replacement would be a drop-in.

    Eventually, the plate will come further and further out until you can grab the edge with your fingers and wiggle it free. The Shiloh version reportedly had grasping grooves at the sides of the plate. If yours has these, you might be able to wiggle the plate out by hand; if not, the careful chisel method is next best. I mounted a single edged razor blade in a wood handle for this operation, and it worked a couple times until the blade shattered. If your chisel sharpens but wont hold an edge, that’s all to the good.

    If you got the cleanout screw out, good news. Get the nipple off, as well. Those little brushes Harbor Freight sells for cleaning airbrush paint sprayers are handy for cleaning the holes out. Put some of that anti-seize grease on the threads when you put it all back together. Take the forend off and check for powder residue on the barrel and lever screw.

    Pedersoli apparently went through at least two “improvements” on the Lawrence gas-check, requiring more elaborate tools to get things loose, and, from my reading, not doing much to help the sticking problem. They also sell some kind of brass cartridge case that fits in the chamber in lieu of a paper cartridge. In my reading, I haven’t found anybody praising this anachronism, either. My model is apparently the first one, which retained the Lawrence design.

    There’s a guy named Charlie Hahn who reworks breechblocks and barrels so the guns can be shot all day without problems, and he also sells cardboard charge tubes that facilitate loading. But I’d rather try to figure out how the Civil War guys got them to work. In a war where every breechloading design got used, and everybody griped about the guns they were issued, the Maynard and the Sharps seemed to be the only ones that were mostly complaint free. To read the re-enactors’ griping, though, you wonder how the Sharps got the reputation it had.

    I was pretty lost when I got my rifle. If anybody has corrections to what I’m saying, please point them out. The N-SSA site is a major resource for sorting these problems out; I took a few afternoons to search out everything Sharps-related in the firearms section, and it was time well spent. The 1863 Support section of the Shiloh site has a lot of good info too. There was a guy named Dromia that used to post here; he did a lot of shooting with capping breechloaders and bullet-shooting muzzleloaders, and his insights seemed spot-on, and then he just stopped posting. But that brass barrel insert of yours is a real mystery, to me at least. Never read or heard of anything like it.

    I wouldn’t bother trying to convert it to fire cartridges. You’d probably need to replace the hammer, too, or grind away the percussion cup on the face. The things are a lot of fun to shoot, although they’re more of a job to clean than two cap&ball revolvers. Use the strongest musket caps you can find: CCI 300, Navy Arms and RWS seem the best. Avoid “Re-Enactor” caps.

  12. #252
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    "I don’t think you’ll be disappointed, if you like Sharps rifles in the first place. Pedersolis are well made and shoot and function perfectly satisfactorily, but if Pedersolis are fitted together water-tight, Shilohs are fitted together air-tight. There is also sort of a voluptuousness in the way the Shilohs handle and work that is noticeable compared to the Pedersolis: the hammer pulls back to half-cock just enough to clear the firing pin, but no further; springs are just strong enough to function properly, but no stronger, the cocking, levering and trigger-setting is markedly less effort, etc; a very nice job all around. If you can borrow a copy of Clyde Baker’s Gunsmithing, the section on “hard-fitting” is a very good description of how a gun thus put together works, compared to a standard factory product, although Clyde describes it for double-barrel shotguns rather than rifles."

    I don't want to steer away from the current discussion, but thank you BR. I know what you mean. I am quite happy i went through bill goodman, I'm not sure if i could endure the full waiting time otherwise.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
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  13. #253
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    Bent, got the nipple out, it's new but rusty in the threads, did a through clean out of the primer system w / the screw out of the left side.
    My backing plate does have the indents, one on each side, but will try your sharp tool method. I have been trying to find what size of screws (2) that go in the forearm (it had a 10x24 ugly galvanized (1)) holding the forearm on. Most likely i will refinish the stock, clean everything up and sell it, we'll see. Thanks again for all the help (I'll be back).

    coffee's ready, Hootmix.

  14. #254
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yup, I'm back, been looking and reading,3-4hrs., (my wittl'e eye's hurt) about the 74's percussions, especially the gas ck. plate.
    I have removed, (Thanks to Bent R.), and cleaned the gas plate & and cleaned the cavity, the primer passageway all the way thru, fixed the head on the screw (small dab of anticize on install). So how tight should it be when re-installing the G CK. Plate?
    Read to use high temp silicon to fill cavity (plugging primer hole first), helps stop blow back & keep blocks cleaner??
    What is Charlie Hahn's, brass case's? Do any of ya'll use them? Now don't get excited, all these questions & reading don't mean i'm
    going thru all this just to shoot this BP rig, (it doesn't,, dose it?)

    now more coffee, Hootmix.

  15. #255
    Boolit Master
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    I never heard of putting anything permanent in the cavity; maybe this is somebody’s “trade secret.” I fill it with tallow (Crisco might work as well) so the BP pressure keeps squeezing it into the joint between the block and the plate.

    Previous to that, I would anoint the joint on top between shots with a couple drops of Ballistol/water. The point is to keep the block plate sliding back and forth, and the barrel insert likewise. With the latter, it was mostly up to the boolit lube, which I dipped all over the front of the paper cartridge.

    It’s when both parts pinch together (as they’re supposed to do on firing) but stay pinched because the fouling won’t let them move, that the sticky block syndrome rears it’s ugly head.

    Glad you got yours out. I smear the anti-seize grease on the spigot on the plate where it fits in the block, but the tallow in the cavity seems to work as well. I put it on all screw threads, and on the bearing sides of the block. When the plate is pressed back into the block, the joint should be almost invisible, just like before you took it apart.

    Charlie Hahn makes the cardboard tubes. Everybody seems to think highly of them. I’ve never tried them, and don’t know how well they work if he hasn’t modified the block and barrel of the gun first. Pedersoli makes the brass tubes, and I’ve never heard anything favorable about them. I don’t know what you’d do if the end of one got stuck in the block cavity.

    I think somebody pointed me to an e-magazine on Pedersoli’s web site. There was an article that helped me sort through the various versions of the Pedersoli breaching system. Wouldn’t help on Shilohs, though. Another guy had a three-part series in the Black Powder Cartridge News on getting three different original models of Sharps percussion carbines to shoot. He got some pretty impressive 100-yd groups with one of them. That’s the trouble; nobody posts the plethora of load and accurate shooting data for the percussion model like they do for the cartridge guns. Many re-enactors just shoot blanks in their skirmishes, no boolits at all.

    I gotta get mine out and shoot it again, before it gets too hot.

  16. #256
    Boolit Master


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    I was out trying out a new mold Tom at Accurate made for me. 41-276S for my Shiloh 40-50BN. Thought I'd post a picture while I was at it.


    Attachment 301009
    “Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.”
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  17. #257
    Boolit Master Randy Bohannon's Avatar
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    I am fascinated by the 40-50 SBN and have a 1874 Shiloh Military Carbine 26” barrel on order to be chambered in the said cartridge. Having a Shiloh 1874 in 40-70 SS has been hit and miss with brass and the 40-50 SBN will do 90% of what the 40-70 SS will do and no brass issues. I would be curious to your load details and where you are finding accuracy. My 40-70 SS is configured similar to yours. #4 is on order with #5 in the works.

  18. #258
    Boolit Master


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    Hi Randy,
    I've had some issues regarding paper patched bullets, leading and marginal accuracy. I aired my frustrations on the Shiloh Forum and the advise was pretty helpful. Mr. McDowell was of the opinion that I had a weird dimension for a chamber, add smokeless and there you go, leading and inaccuracy. He also stated that I should be patching to groove diameter when using smokeless. Due to a dearth of black powder, I've been doing most of my testing with smokeless powder and GG bullets. And as I'm still recovering from a rotator cuff surgery, the testing has been minimal. As to the 41-276S bullet, the load yesterday was 21 grains of 5744. Accuracy at fifty yards were 1.5'' with barrel sights. In the past, RCBS 400 grain and the Lyman FP version shot very well, I thought that they were a bit heavy for the cartridge and elected to have Accurate make one closer to the original weight. I still plan on making the switch to PP as soon as a reliable source for blackpowder surfaces. Lots of testing and load development this summer, I really like the round, should be a dandy deer combo.
    “Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.”
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  19. #259
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    Here is one of my favorite Shiloh Sharps rifles shown with two 10 shot targets I shot this morning for prone practice at 200m. I don't get to the range quite as often as I used to so I tend to throw the occasional flyer. The leftmost target has 9 shots into about 1.8" which is well under a minute of angle. The flyer to the right expands the size considerably. I pulled the two wide shots on the second target or it'd be about as good. The rifle is definitely a heck of a good shooter.

    The rifle is a Shiloh #3 in .40-65 with a 30" heavy barrel, 1:16 twist. Extra fancy wood, AA finish, ebony tip and grip. MVA 23" 6x scope with DZ mounts.

    For anyone with a similar rifle I'll share the load. It shoots quite well in another Shiloh I have with a 32" barrel and faster 1:14 twist too.

    Rem brass, annealed
    Fed LP primer with primer wad in pocket.
    62gr Swiss 1.5 lot 270.613
    0.060" LDPE wad + newsprint wad under bullet
    BACO "Money" bullet 409400M4 ( I think this bullet might have been renamed to 409400M5 now ).
    16:1, DGL lube
    slip fit, 3.165" OAL.

    Chris.

    http://www.bcsingleshot.com/Photos/shiloh-small.jpg

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  20. #260
    Boolit Bub Mikedominick's Avatar
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    Here's my 50-90 Hartford model I got around 1993, I'd bought and traded off several Long Range Expresses, a Business Rifle, and a couple Saddle Rifles by then. I'd run the gamut from 45-120, 50-140, 40-70 SS, and 45-70. I've still got this one.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check