Planned gunsmithing shop purchase: what are the most common jobs?

[Parson]

I did much the same, very short apprenticeship, some tool and die experience then self thought, it can work but if I had to do it over again I would pick a specialty and stick with it. I know more gunsmiths that got out of it for one reason, they got sick and tired of working on junk, dealing with public that knows almost nothing but demand everything will eventually burn you out

[pietro]

I know more gunsmiths that got out of it for one reason, they got sick and tired of working on junk - dealing with public that knows almost nothing but demand everything will eventually burn you out

So true - The folks bringing in work are mostly not gun-savvy (workwise), and will not want to pay much for whatever job.

The other reason for not understanding how much a job will cost lies in perception - an expert makes what he's doing look easy, and everybody believes they're expert enough to do the job as easily, or better.


It's easy enough to rationalize away the perils of taking over a business, so please take the due diligence (CPA, lawyer, etc) before taking what could very well end up being a bath.


.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The problems have been very clearly set out by most people here. The business in small accessories without legal controls is has worsened considerably with the increase in e-shopping.

A lot depends on how much the premises will really earn their keep from your other business - and, of course, how much of your time and energy it takes. One reason gunsmiths have to charge more for their time than some customers like or understand, is that no matter how much time you can sell, you can't buy in any more stock of it. You have to beware of jobs you could happily do well for yourself as an amateur, who traditionally doesn't cost up his time, but which won't pay you enough per hour.Study books on gunsmithing, and some of the old ones, like Roy Dunlap, George Nonte, Harold E McFarland and Virgil Howe are among the best, because they are about improvising rather than buying expensive tools you will only use once, and a lot of the firearms they describe are now in the can't-get-parts bracket.

There are a couple of ways to do a good thing with facilities on the scale you describe. One is to find some specialized job you can do, and others aren't doing. That is how you pick up customers from far away. Study books, schematics, reloading catalogues, firearms patents... You might even find something of your own worth at least a cheap provisional patent via some simple system like http://www.patentwizard.com/ . This board and others will provide information on old or antique firearms for which some easily lost or broken part isn't available. You can't compete with a bigger firm on this, once they are actually doing it, but you can make things that sell in numbers too small for them.

Just for example if I was a professional gunsmith - which I'm not, not even a failed one - I would consult a firm like TJ's and see if they could tool up for a batch of barrel liners in the fast-twist 6mm. required for the many 6mm. Lee Navy rifles which have ruined bores,

Another - though it needs to be approached with caution - is to buy, repair or refinish and resell antique or collectible firearms. Some of these go cheap because they don't quite justify the work, but others do. Another is to find some kind of conversion job you know will find a market niche. To quote an example which no longer exists, Greener and after them Webley used to make the Greener GP, a very strong Martini-action single shot 12ga shotgun. But because few people in the UK shoot deer with slugs, they never made a cylinder bore version with a good receiver sight or low-power scope.

I mention as an example of something that should cause you hesitation, the conversion of shotguns into double rifles. This can be done successfully, and I am convinced there is a market, but you would have to be very sure of yourself on the score of safety. I believe I would rather lose a few fingers than be sued by someone who has.

A very useful way of getting known would be to become at least a local champion in some shooting sport. Well plenty of people want to... But benchresting, for example, cuts out a lot of the qualities it takes to be a brilliant shot. I have a friend who held the UK light varmint record with ten shots in about four inches at a thousand yards, on his own farm. It did him quite a bit of good in his business, which was principally in suppressors at that time, although he wasn't any kind of champion in quietening down firearms.

[nekshot]

I have been watching this thread thinking how much I identify with you. I did not go the gunsmith for public route because I could not sleep at night if I messed up a fellas gun or if he thought I did. But I made a hobby out of it and I am boss and I don't care what anybody thinks of my work. My brother raced open wheel cars all his life and spent a lot of money but he is happy. I had a close friend(he died) who sold his 70,000 dollar drag strip car for 30,000 the other year and he was happy. Why, because these fellows chased a dream. I am chasing mine but for almost all of my investment I should get a greater return. If you could keep your cash flow on your regular work ability then go for it and to hang with the naysayers!

[Andy]

I really appreciate all of the thoughts everyone is putting into their responses, that's what I love about this forum. Lots of really sound advice from trying to specialize in a certain task to ways to avoid competing with online/big store prices etc.

A few more details:
- I don't really want to say the numbers or anything but this property came at a very attractive price and the machinery and inventory were basically thrown in to sweeten the deal and make it financially feasible for us. It is adjacent to our land in a rural area so we wanted it with or without the equipment. So please don't worry that I'm paying too much, I feel like God really blessed us with this thing and both he and I are very happy about how it worked out.

- I shouldn't have said "I'm buying his business" because I realize now that was the wrong term. I am purchasing all of his business assets, he has closed his business, and I will be moving my woodworking business to his previous location and also running a small gun shop with the tools/equipment/inventory he has left for me. My goal in this post is to explore whether it is worth it to do that as a small side business and find out what the common jobs I might be likely to run into are.

To answer a few questions/points:
- I do mean that the retail area will only be about 100 sf, a 10'x10' area. I have an open shop plan and this would be a cordoned off area of that with displays/shelving in a boxed area with a retail counter barring entry into the shop (gated bench style). I intend my retail space to be a bare bones thing where I'm offering the items that aren't easy to order online, and other small accessories based only on the demand I see. Based on his experience I think I'm lucky if I average two 15 minute customers a day, when they walk in I greet them and work on something noiseless nearby while they are there.

-I hope to make money on transfers, occasional used gun sales (including using gunbroker to sell locally purchased items), ammo/powder/primer sales and gradually increase the role that gunsmithing plays in my income as I gain skills. Before I would stock regular accessories I would have to have a few people ask for them. A huge percentage of people shop online for that stuff now so I don't want to try to compete with amazon and midway where I can't.

- I will take the advice to get professional training seriously, I think that is sound wisdom. I am accustomed to turning away work if I cannot do it with perfect confidence in my woodworking business and I will apply that same logic here. I definitely am not going to be a hack job gunsmith, but I can clean guns, mount scopes, boresight and replace basic parts while I gain knowledge.

Given what I'm limiting myself to in size/scope of the business, do you guys think it is reasonable that I can hit my break-even point of $1800 net a year? Shop is already paid for/heat/electric by the woodworking. I just need $1800/year from the gunsmithing/gun store portion and this use of shop space and the direct costs of the gun side of things are then worth it to me.

[sparky45]

Fantastic plan Andy, I wish you well.
S45

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I can't offer any business advice, but it seems others have that covered.
What I can offer is my experience as a customer.

I have brought plenty of work to gunsmiths in my area, Mostly action work on revolvers...lighter springs and a bit of polishing, so I'm told. Also, I've brought in several rifles to have the receivers D&T for scope mounts. My local smith doesn't have a specialty, and I learned the hard way, not to have him do anything outside his comfort zone...Yeah He has screwed up two of my guns. He paid for new parts on one gun and denied the breakage on another one...hard feelings followed that.

The last time I was there, I had him pillar bed a rifle and I asked him, what makes up most of his business. He said, mostly shotgun mods (Choke work, bedding actions, and installing recoil reducers). There is a lot of trap shooters in my area, and the recent craze of trap shooting in public High Schools (extracurricular) has brought him lots of new business.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'll say a bit more, if you're not tired of hearing it. Yes, making $1,800 a year should be a snap. That's only $150 a month. If you drill and tap 4 scope mount holes at $20 each, mount a scope for $35, sell $50 profit worth of merchandise, order a $650 firearm for a customer for a 10% fee you're already at a total of $230--and that was easy, and you can probably do a lot better. Figure, though, that most jobs will cost you something in parts, material and time; so your $ 1,800 may entail rolling over $2,500. Remember that it takes money to make money, and you'll have to restock the merchandise you sell and replace the gunsmithing supplies that you use, be it sandpaper, drill bits, taps, whatever. But it will likely start slowly until word gets around that you are in the gun business. Your best advertising is "word of mouth" from satisfied customers, but a little formal advertising doesn't hurt either. It doesn't have to be expensive advertising, a lot of rural areas have "shopper" and "bargain" newspapers that run ads very inexpensively or even for free. If you do good work your business will grow, because there is always a market for good craftsmanship. Sadly, as another poster commented on, some "gun people" seem to be among the cheapest and most demanding on the planet, and one unhappy customer will always be out there telling anyone willing to listen what bad work you do and how you screwed up his gun, marriage, credit rating and drove him to alcoholism. So as you run across these folks you want to discourage them from patronizing your establishment with words like, "Oh, I don't work on those. They're just outside my field of interest. I couldn't get parts, and if I did they'd be super expensive. I'm booked solid, and I can't take any more work in right now. Too much on my plate." I'll bet that time and experience will cause you to think of things even more creative. Besides the counter dividing the retail area and work area you need to have a very prominent sign "Minimum Labor Charge $35.00" (or whatever seems right to you) and stick with it. I have known guys in the business that would not pick a customer's gun up off the counter unless they first had a $20.00 bill in their hand. There are a couple of ways of viewing that, but one of the ways is that if you go to a doctor or a dentist they don't examine you for free and just charge for the operation or filling, they get paid for the exam. When the customer brings the gun into your shop he had a pretty good idea of what is wrong with it or what it is that he wants done to it. Those that don't are quite willing to let you use your expertise in examining their gun and arrive at a diagnosis, tell them what is needed to fix it, and are then just as likely to say something like, "Well, I'll just take it back home" and turn around and leave and go try to fix it themselves, as they are to leave it in your shop for you to work on. Resist the temptation to be a "great guy" when you see an easy fix, just fix it right there on the counter in front of them, and hand it back and say "No charge." You'll get a reputation for doing free work and their buddies will start showing up expecting the same. You can try hard to always be pleasant and have a smile or grin and a new joke to tell, and you don't have to be a horse's posterior, but that $20 bill you just let walk out the door will never return, and it could have gone toward your $1,800 goal. Someone very famous once said, "A man can not serve two masters..." and I think that you're going to find that to be the case. If you put in the time on the gun business it will squeeze you out of the woodworking business. Like I said, it's almost certain to start slowly because you're starting at "0", but it will grow and become all you can handle and in a few years, probably very few, you'll be looking at a net of $35-50,000 per year. In reading over your posts I can see that you've got ideas, mostly good, on how to proceed and on ways to make money, and I believe that you'll do well. Best wishes.
DG

[HollowPoint]

Although I have been self-employed for most of my adult life, I won't presume to give you any advise on your potential purchase of this side business. I suspect that in the back of your mind you've already run both the worst-case-scenerios and the best-case-scenerios multiple times.

I just wanted to wish you the best no matter what you decide. It may or may not be easy but, I think your plan; as you've described it, is doable. And I know that the really hard part is actually pulling the trigger on this purchase and seeing where it takes you.

HollowPoint

[MrWolf]

Andy, sounds like you have it pretty much worked out and how you rephrased it makes more sense. Think of it as having to make $1,800 more a year in payments on something you really want. If the gun shop works, great. If not, still ok just figure another way to make $1,800 to pay for everything that you are getting or cut back on something else. You may even save that much in fees and discounts supporting your hobby. Seems a small price to me. Good luck.

[Geezer in NH]

Get your LIABILITY Insurance before opening and do no work without it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

- I do mean that the retail area will only be about 100 sf, a 10'x10' area. I have an open shop plan and this would be a cordoned off area of that with displays/shelving in a boxed area with a retail counter barring entry into the shop (gated bench style).

Well that is a lot less claustrophobic than a 10x10 room, and people do like to see what is going on. Interrupt your work, possibly, but you have to balance that against getting them in there. If you find only a small trickle of people coming in, havye a coffee percolator on the counter.

It is good advice to be careful what work you accept, both because of the economics of time and tooling, and if you feel liable to foul up. But you should never lie about your reason for doing so. If you say "I just can't compete for that kind of work with somebody in.... ", or even "I really don't have the special skill that one needs", they might tell a friend or two. But if you say the parts aren't available, and they find out they are in the Brownells catalogue, a lot more than that may hear about it, and "You've got to admit he was honest" won't come into it.

Now there is another book worth having, and this time a cheap one: the Brownells print catalogue. Study it long-term, not just for what you might buy from it, but for tooling you can make up cheaply and well enough for using a few times.

[HangFireW8]

Bread and butter work is:

Scope mounting
Fixing bad scope mounts
Butt pads/shorten/lengthen stocks
Jammed guns
Broken/missing part
Polish/reblue
Trigger jobs
Accuracy package (glass bed, crown, scope mount centered and trigger job)

Work is seasonal for hunters. If you work near a trap and skeet range better learn shotgun work.

[Andy]

Thanks again for the thoughtful responses, I want everyone to know that I thoughtfully read each one even if I don't happen to mention it when I post again.

Der Gebirgsjager I want to say thanks for your lengthy (in a good way) responses, I know it takes time to write that info and I am reading every word of it. It being a small town where I know most people personally I think I have some risk of having an awkward situation if I fixed a problem quickly for a customer right in front of them from the "be a good guy" thing you mentioned, that is certainly a potential issue. With my woodworking business I avoid this by telling people I have a $50 minimum, and by never doing shop work right in front of a customer. If they insist on waiting I let them know that my insurance doesn't let me do work while there is a customer in the shop (true for my policy but also handy sometimes) and they can wait in the car if they really want to. People understand that better with power tools than hand work so I was thinking this will be a little more difficult to stick with when doing very simple gunsmithing tasks on a "right now" basis. I know how to price professionally but I could use advice on doing so in a friendly "small town" social manner with people you know, for quick jobs where they want to wait around I'm especially concerned about being able to stick to my policy with this. Any thoughts on that specific situation anyone?

Hollow point thanks for your good wishes, I can update that we're closing tuesday so we have pulled the trigger and are very excited. (Again property is a good purchase for us even if we don't do the gun shop part, so I don't want anyone to think I'm asking for advice after the fact).

Mr. Wolf that's a bit how I'm wanting to look at it, it is for example a very convenient add-on business given that I like the hobby so much myself. But for example the advertising/added insurance costs/retail space do need to make me some money or I could just get an FFL and drop those aspects and have most of the benefits without the cost. So, I very much agree in feeling but want to pencil it out business-wise and make sure it works.

Geezer in NH thanks for the tip. I actually just bound coverage for tuesday through the nra endorsed insurance through lockton. They were very helpful and much cheaper than other alternatives I looked into. As of tuesday I'm covered for the building, inventory, tools, premises liability and liability on any gunsmithing work I do, as well as a bunch of other situations that aren't worth detailing. It is a very good policy though and was only a bit more than insuring the building separately so I was quite impressed with them. If anyone needs an agent recommendation drop me a PM, I have been very happy with mine.

Ballistics in scotland thanks, I am a good internet shopper and my wife and I do everything we can online. I am definitely always 100% honest with customers. I feel like if the part is out there, I can find it whether it is ebay, numrichs, brownells midway or on a forum etc. so that is one of my strong points in business I think. I like finding old items online that others say are unavailable, whether it is for yard machines or something else so I think I have something to offer there to my clients.

Hangfire thanks for the list, that's a key part of what I was looking to hear from this thread. I feel like I have the skills to do the scope mounting, scope mount fixing, butt pad/stock LOP adjustment and broken/missing parts tasks fairly well currently, and would not be comfortable with most jammed guns, trigger jobs or accurizing. Those last three are work I would turn away at this point due to inexperience. Bluing/refinishing I would like to find a good place to send it out to, so that I can at least offer it to customers who don't want to shop for it themselves. If anyone has any recommendations on a good gun metal finishing business please drop me a line. I imagine someone on here does it but I haven't needed it personally so I'm not aware of who.

Thanks again everyone, I'll keep writing back as long as you do and want to say thanks for the advice and the encouragement.

[targetshootr]

If the previous owner is available, I would ask him to work part time for you. Or maybe find a local machinist who you can take work to if you feel unsure about a project. Probably most important is to be dependable and then you'll never have to advertise. If you become covered up, take a small deposit and then call the customer when you're ready for his gun. Some of us wait years before seeing our guns again and we can lose interest by the time it makes it to the bench. Earlier this year I sent an N frame for a barrel and cylinder swap and it's been six months already for what I imagine is 2-3 hours work since no finishing is required. And I pre paid.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Letting a one-day job take a year gives you the time to have a lot of 2-3 hour barrel and cylinder jobs take a couple of days. The one-year man is likely to resent it less than every one of the latter owners will resent waiting a month.

[Andy]

The previous owner is moving away and fully retiring unfortunately, so he's out of the picture other than phone calls.

I am a firm believer in running my businesses on a first-come-first-serve basis, within reason. In other words, I work on jobs in the order they come in unless there is a compelling customer-driven, economy of scale, or parts delay reason not to. Typically I would think I should never bump one customer ahead of another unless there was a significant situation ike a hunter on vacation with a broken sight/scope, or something of equal urgency.

Fortunately my woodworking schedule is usually highly flexible so these situations are unlikely to arise often unless something dramatic changes in both business plans.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi Andy, and thanks for your thanks. I think everyone here is wishing you well and sincerely trying to help. About the fix-it-while-you-wait thing, if you can, you should--because like I said about a slightly different angle the $20 won't come your way again if you let it go out the door. But there's a psychological angle to it. See, it's not like you don't deserve to be paid for fixing it even if it's what seems to you to be a ridiculously easy fix because the customer didn't know how to fix it and you did, but you don't want to do it in front of him because then he sees how easy it was and maybe becomes resentful. So you need to accept the gun, duck around the corner out of sight and do what needs to be done, then bring it back to the counter. Then the customer is both impressed and satisfied. Ahhh.... the mysteries of gunsmithing!

[44man]

I am self taught. Been at it all my life but only a side line. To make money is to charge a lot. Don't bet the house on getting rich. It was like old TV repair men, charge 3X more. I also repaired TV's and radios and made a ton of money by charging less so word of mouth spread all over Ohio. I just did more jobs without cheating, 3X the work. I got TV's from across the state. Nothing to come home from work to see the garage filled. Not something you want to see with guns. A lightning strike I could fix for $25 cost $79 from the shop. Factor in gas to get parts and I still made money.
I learned to checker myself but you can lose your shirt with the time spent. I built custom, carved ML's and made stocks from planks. When someone pays $300 for a piece of wood for you to build a rifle, you will see fear and a ton of time. Then they want custom checkering.
Many good smiths today will price you to death. They have no other way to survive. I lost money on most jobs so I still do my friends work while they watch. I had a job other then my work ALWAYS. You suck dry sand instead of water if you want to live off a gunsmiths pay. You better know EVERYTHING.Attachment 172516Attachment 172518 some of my work.

[44man]

Some more.Attachment 172524 Better know a Ruger, Colt or S&W inside out. All rifles. You need to trouble shoot fast and have a fix with parts right now. Glass bedding the right way and pillar bedding. Fix a broken stock.
Don't give up your day job.