Planned gunsmithing shop purchase: what are the most common jobs?

[Andy]

Edit: If you're coming new to the thread please read my other responses in the body of the thread, I've added a good bit of info that is probably worth reading before you respond. Some things I said in this first post I've corrected a bit or clarified in the following ones.

Edit #2: November 2018: I just happened to come back across this thread in an internet search almost 2.5 years later and thought I would do a quick follow up. The gun shop has worked out well and has become a much more significant part of my income than I expected it would be. I have built up a few niche areas where I am the go-to shop in the area and business has steadily increased over the last two years to where the gun shop is quickly becoming my main business instead of a side thing. I'm very appreciative of the info I got back in 2016 from this thread, it certainly helped me to approach things the right way and contributed to the business becoming a success. The additional work/income from the gun shop has rounded out self-employment nicely for me and I am able to stay gainfully employed in profitable work nearly 100% of the time now.

Original post follows:
Some key points I want to make before you read more are that this is a SIDE business that will be co-located with my existing business (i.e. I am the only guy running both things) and that I'm just exploring if I am likely to be able to net $1800 or more a year out of it.

Original post:

I'm about to become the owner of a turn-key rural (very small) gunsmithing shop. I am planning out the business and would like to know from those in business (or repeat gunsmithing customers), what are the most common tasks you are asked to do by customers. I will have my other (main) woodworking business co-located with this and I am a one-man shop. I'll have a small retail front (room for only 2-4 people in the store kind of thing) where I stock ammo, powder and primers and other items only by request or regular demand.

I will be the only gunsmith within an hour drive for about 1000 locals and add on a couple hundred hunters during the appropriate seasons as we're an attractive hunting destination here. The area is rural with generally low to moderate income locals with maybe 10% by volume higher income customers who own lakefront vacation property and/or come here to hunt.

I am not a trained gunsmith but the gentleman I am buying from is and has been showing me various tasks for about 6-10 hours a week as we have worked though the buying process over the last month. This will continue for a month from now so I have some chance to ask him to show me things based on your recommendations.

So, what do you get asked to do the most? Separate from that, what tasks make you the best money per hour or are the most fun and you will always keep doing for one reason or the other for example.

Edit: wanted to give some details on equipment as it relates to what jobs I can do: two very good condition atlas lathes (one with 36" between centers) with just about every piece of tooling/attachments imaginable, small mill with a huge assortment of tooling, couple small drill presses that could be better, heat treating furnace, barrel vise with lots of fittings, many small gunsmithing tools/jigs and an assortment of starret hand tools and that's about it. Everything is in tip-top, like new condition, the shop doesn't have a metal shaving or an out of place tool anywhere is how this man ran things.

[M-Tecs]

Good luck on you new business. A friend of mine has a business model like yours. In passing he stated that he mostly did scope mountings and general cleaning. He also does a bunch of FFL transfers. If you have special skill focus on that. I know one gentleman that doesn't nothing other than stock work. Myself I'm a toolmaker and I am really only interested in working on match rifles.

What's the wait times on new FFL's now days?

[Andy]

Thanks for the info, from what I have read online the last year or so it sounds like it is a 2-4 month wait once you have everything sent in, closer to the 2 month side. Surprisingly the little I have read on forums suggests they don't hassle you too much about it.

[Mica_Hiebert]

barrel threading is pretty popular, my smith charges $50 +25 for a thread protector. trigger jobs and glass bedding are common requests too.not sure what he charges for those as ive only had him do thread work.

[w5pv]

Take yourself a good gunsmithing course.I think it would pay in the long run

[Preacher Jim]

Remember no one brings a job in till they need it yesterday. Many will not pick up work till the week before hunting season so you eat their job til then. Parts are getting harder to come by so get his lists of parts suppliers. Keep your records up to date you never know when the inspectors will check you. My friend lost his license because he had a junk action in the scrap bin and no record of it on book.
Do not take work you can not do unless you have a place to send it to finish. Network a source of people who do specialized things like metal finishes and such that you are not prepared to do.

[pietro]

.


If you don't know how to run the equipment or weld (don't laugh) - especially the lathe(s) - either ask the former owner/gunsmith to tutor you, or look around for a local HS night class on machining metal & welding.

While mounting sights/scopes & cleaning (which "fixes" a lot of issues) jobs are common, drilling/tapping for various sights and/or scope mount bases will be important, and (given your customer base) likely the most productive ($$).

I'm also a woodworker, but unless one has experience and/or special skills, I would recommend staying away from re-stocking/checkering jobs for the time being - but IMO glass-bedding rifles can be both interesting & lucrative (given the cost of the supplies required).

What most customers have in mind though, is how much $$ a whatever job will cost them, so I would suggest taking the mystery out of it, and conspicuously post both your hourly rate and a flat rate for the most common jobs.

Don't forget to add your rate for idle chatter/BS to the list ..........


.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't know what state you're located in but if the local regulations aren't too bad, there's money to be made in transfers and consignments. Both of those types of sales require little outlay from the FFL. You make your money when the gun transfers and you don't tie up much money while you're waiting to sell it. Theft, particularly night time burglaries, can be a problem so have a plan to address that issue. Never leave firearms in display cases when the shop is closed.
Most gunsmith type jobs are either things that gun owners are uncomfortable doing, like drilling & tapping for scopes or things they aren't equipped to handle. You can tie up a LOT of money in tools that you will rarely use. So limit yourself to jobs that are profitable with little investment in tools and time. Someone suggested farming out metal finishing and I would agree with that.
If your population is small (and it sounds like it is) you may wish to look to the internet to expand that customer base, particularly during off season.
Good Luck !

[OS OK]

Just my opinion, but you ask...I think you ought re-think the deal.
If you wanted to work on guns you should have done an apprenticeship with a smith to learn the ins and outs of the trade, along with a good gunsmithing corse.
This is not like drawing a picture, where you can just erase a mistake and re-draw...this is a one time, get it right or you just screwed up a weapon type deal. Skills take years to master. For instance...tapping scope mounts into a barrel, you break a tap off in the barrel...oh spit...what next? Someone wants a trigger job and you get it wrong, if you catch it, you buy some new parts and start over...if you don't catch it and the weapons fires when it gets bumped and someone is injured...I don't even want to go there.
I would imagine that the Federal paperwork along with the insurance is going to take some time and need a constant customer base to keep that part of the overhead in check.
I can't remember ever going hunting and waiting to get to the lease to buy my ammo...
I'll bet this guy is doing back flips to be helpful in selling you this business, his customer base in a town of 1,000 doesn't sound too big.
You should examine his books and tax records for the last 3 to 5 years...
I think you are biting off more than you can chew, even if you think general sales will cover the overhead, breaking even is not making a living.

I'm not a pessimist...just an experienced optimist who ran his own business for the past 35 years...OS OK

[izzyjoe]

From what I've read here, I get the same feeling as OS OK. You might want to really think this over, gunsmithing is not a real profitable business, you have to enjoy it. I was wanting to do the same thing, but money was the big factor for me, and if I put out the money how long would it take for me to break even, or even earn a check myself. I talked to my local gunsmith and told what I wanted to do, and he said he would be glad for me to open shop, cause he had enough work that was turning some away, but the more we talked I realized what he was getting at. Gunsmithing nowadays is even harder cause of the internet, somebody's breaks a gun then tries to play gunsmith there self, and then brings it to you at a last resort. And you have to learn to weed out kind of work, but it's hard to turn away work but sometimes you have to. I was thinking I could earn a living just cleaning guns, and mounting scopes, but most folks clean there own guns, and do most of the minior repairs themselves. But I would give it a good hard long look, and do a lot of research on his business and see if this is something you really want to do. And if you choose to do it I wish you all the luck!

[Andy]

Thank you for all of the info guys, I really appreciate the responses. I definitely don't plan to be drilling and tapping scopes or any no-room-for-error jobs unless I am properly trained and practiced in them first. I know that I'm not a gunsmith or metalworker just because I came into some space and equipment, but I am a careful guy and can read and understand technical writing and follow instructions and I would like to learn to do this. I figure every conversation I'll be having with a customer is going to have to start with "I'm not a trained gunsmith..." for some years to come, and in the meantime I'm restricted to very low-risk tasks as I gain experience.

This would never pay if I was trying to do this as my only business and buying a storefront just for that, but the property pays for itself with the rental unit on it, the shop lets me expand my woodworking into a larger/better space, and the gun/metalworking stuff is already set up and ready to go so I feel like it is a low risk thing to try out. If I can make the gun side of things (truly) break even I suppose that really is enough for me as I am getting an improved woodworking space, a decent metalworking shop and keeping the last gun shop in town open as the perks from that break-even.

My break even point on whether to keep the gun store & gunsmithing side of things open and maintain an FFL would be $100/month in net income, and add another $50 to that for the value I place on the 100sf of retail space. So, if I can net $1800/year at a minimum this works out to me. Do you guys think I might reasonably be able to do that in my situation?

[MrWolf]

Did you have a CPA review the books of the business or are you just paying FMV for the tooling? I am a CPA (retired from it now) and have seen clients burned when they did not listen and pay to have someone do the due diligence on the books. If you have someone do the review, get it in writing everything you expect them to do, etc. and have the invoice specify what they did. Really should have an engagement letter spell it all out. Old client bought a gym after many years of my telling him the taxes, books, etc. did not support what he wanted. He ended up buying a gym anyway and found out the cash is not there like the seller stated. Also be careful if you are buying his business are you assuming any of his liabilities including prior repairs, debts, etc? Best advise I can give is pay a few bucks for the attorney and CPA now versus major potential issues latter. Good points also on whether you have the expertise but you seem ok with basics covering the added costs and overhead.

[OS OK]

Thank you for all of the info guys, I really appreciate the responses. I definitely don't plan to be drilling and tapping scopes or any no-room-for-error jobs unless I am properly trained and practiced in them first. I know that I'm not a gunsmith or metalworker just because I came into some space and equipment, but I am a careful guy and can read and understand technical writing and follow instructions and I would like to learn to do this. I figure every conversation I'll be having with a customer is going to have to start with "I'm not a trained gunsmith..." for some years to come, and in the meantime I'm restricted to very low-risk tasks as I gain experience.

This would never pay if I was trying to do this as my only business and buying a storefront just for that, but the property pays for itself with the rental unit on it, the shop lets me expand my woodworking into a larger/better space, and the gun/metalworking stuff is already set up and ready to go so I feel like it is a low risk thing to try out. If I can make the gun side of things (truly) break even I suppose that really is enough for me as I am getting an improved woodworking space, a decent metalworking shop and keeping the last gun shop in town open as the perks from that break-even.

My break even point on whether to keep the gun store & gunsmithing side of things open and maintain an FFL would be $100/month in net income, and add another $50 to that for the value I place on the 100sf of retail space. So, if I can net $1800/year at a minimum this works out to me. Do you guys think I might reasonably be able to do that in my situation?

I aplaude your sand and honest approach but when you say..."I'm not a trained gunsmith...", be prepared for some knee-jerk reactions and a lot of 'Thanks anyway's'.
You say you will pick up 100 Sq. Ft. in retail space...surly that is a typo, right? Thats a 10 X 10 foot room...how could you possibly put a retail space for a gun shop in there...I'm missing something here Andy.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi Andy, I'm a now-retired gunsmith and made my living solely in that occupation for a number of years. You've gotten some really good advice from the previous posters, and were I you I'd re-read it all carefully and sort through what does and doesn't apply to your individual case. I'm not going to advise you to- or not to- do what your are planning, but I'll be happy to add a few comments from my own experience for you to consider and see if they might apply to your situation.

First, a population base of 1,000 + tourists and seasonal hunters is a pretty small potential clientele on which to base a business. Where I was located the local population was only 500 and they seldom brought in any work. But where I made my living was being known for rebluing work, and I was the only one in the entire county that performed this service and it became 80% of my business. In one direction there was a town of about 8,000 population that was about 24 miles distant, and in the other direction there was a larger town of about 28,000. Folks would drive out to the country where my shop was located to bring me bluing work, which was kind of complementary. I don't mean the work was complementary (free), I mean that it was flattering to have them do so. I had, and still have, a large milling machine and lathe. The mill did allow me to do a couple of jobs that I otherwise would have had difficulty in doing, but the lathe got 98% of the metal work and I could have done without the mill. Just because of my location and the fact that I owned several acres on which my shop was located I never had much trouble with the governmental regulators, but you can't run a bluing business just anywhere because of the overflow from the tanks, etc. I had a front door that customers walked in, and about 10 ft. in front of them they were confronted by a counter which kept them out of the work area. Very important, that, because parts and tools will disappear if you let even people you trust behind the counter. In the front area I had an inventory of merchandise like you are proposing to do in which I invested about $6k. This was back in the 80s and things were a bit cheaper. I figured some good things to carry would be powder, primers, bullets, cleaning supplies, shooting glasses, ear muffs, etc. Mostly the stuff just sat there and gathered dust. Everything I sold came in via UPS, so I had to mark the prices my cost + shipping + a reasonable profit. More than once I was asked something like, "How come this can of powder costs $17.50 when I can get it in town (the big one) for $16.00?" The answer was what I just explained, plus that you can buy it here and have it immediately (convenience) and won't have to pay for the gas to and from town, about a 56 mile round trip. The answer would usually be something like, "Well, I've got to go to town next Tuesday anyway to pick up some chicken feed, so I"ll just wait and get it then." After about 5 years I discontinued the merchandise. Sold it all to myself at a loss, which helped my income taxes and got me a lifetime supply of certain items. The one thing besides actual gunsmithing that I can say was good money was dealing in used guns. I didn't carry anything like Ruger 10/22s that all the discount stores carried in town, but things like used Winchesters and Marlins, and to some extent military surplus guns were good sellers. I'd never pass up a good price on a broken or ugly used gun that was otherwise desirable, reblue and refinish it and put it out on the rack. Very often I could double my money on those items. But I seldom had a brand new gun of popular make in the sale rack because, just like the miscellaneous merchandise I couldn't compete with the "big box" stores that buy a box car load of any one model and send a few to each of their stores. I also did special orders and transfers, and made some money there. Although I came to do a great deal of rebluing work, I did do general repair work and it would be hard to say exactly what the main jobs were. Not much cleaning or refinishing of other people's gunstocks--those seemed to be jobs that they'd tackle themselves. I did do things like cut out new firing pins on the lathe, often for foreign made guns for which the parts weren't available; some drilling and taping for scope mounts and there was more than once when a customer had tried to do it himself and drilled the holes out of line and wanted me to make it work. As time permitted I built and sold a few custom hunting rifles. One of the local police departments decided to sell their confiscated/found firearms and I handled the sales and recorded the transactions for them (for a fee, of course). This worked into an annual event, advertised in the newspaper, items available for viewing in my shop and drop a sealed b id into a ballot box for an item you wanted, winners to be determined after a certain date. Brought in some traffic I wouldn't have had otherwise. I did a lot of action jobs on S&W revolvers. I lived on the same acreage, so when I was at home security wasn't much of a problem, but on those occasions when we left to drive into town to buy groceries it was a concern. When I was most active in the gunsmithing business it was still mostly a world of blue steel and walnut. Today that is changing with all the black plastic stocks and wonder coat finishes, not to mention stainless steel and endless accessorizing. I really don't know if I could make it today as a country gunsmith, and if I tried I'd take a different approach. I think that the key to success today is specializing in a certain area. There seem to be an awful lot of guys out there buiding 1911 pistols and AR-15 rifles of every conceivable configuration, so I'd look for an area of specialty not so crowded.

Best wishes, if you decide to go for it.


DG

[Battis]

I see that you're in the "Northeast US". I live in northern MA and I cannot find a gunsmith. I've looked and asked and whatever but cannot find one. I've had a machinist friend do some minor work; otherwise I try it myself or just don't do it.
I did have a barrel relined by Bob Hoyt in PA - he's found a niche doing that.
Der Gebirgsjager had a great point about selling used firearms - that's the first thing I look for when I go into an out of the way shop. Antiques (cap and ball), military rifles, old ammo (I recently found an original magazine for my Winchester .351 Self Loader and some vintage ammo in a small NH shop), lead, powder. There's lots of old firearms in the Northeast - Kittery Trading Post in Maine seems to be the place they end up (James Julia for the high end items).
I have a few cap and ball revolvers with broken/frozen nipples in the cylinders - I'd like to find someone to drill them out properly. I have other antiques that need new mainsprings made from scratch. I recently came across a shotgun with a bulge in the barrel - I wouldn't know where to bring it to have the barrel cut down, or have the bulge removed.
The work is here.

[Sur-shot]

Speaking of the NE you ever hear of Dick Riley of Hooksett, NH? Was the president of the NRA, a gunsmith, owned Riley's gunshop. I worked for Dick when I was in HS in the early 60s. I told Dick, when I asked for a part time job, that I wanted to be a gunsmith, he told me to go get an education, then get a real vocation, one that would make me a living and then, when and after I retired, be a gunsmith, but to never try to make a living working on guns. Dick was a man I respected and I also respected and valued his opinion. So 50 plus years later that is exactly what I am doing.

I just finished my brand new climate controlled 1800 sq ft gunsmith shop for me to "play" in. But it did not end with Dick, over the years I went and worked on my days off, in gunshops, learning how to build and refinish. I already knew how to sell stuff. Today I build custom rifles, handguns and shotguns. I also own a stock duplicator and build custom stocks. I also build such for our Special Operations troops, for the cost of parts only. My personal pay back for what they do.
Ed

[bob208]

jobs change with the when I fist started working the gunsmith we did a lot of drilling and tapping altering bolts and sling swivels. quite a bit of trigger work too. now that the influx of cheap military rifles has dried up. it looks like putting on sights and scopes. along with fixing other peoples work. when I branched out into muzzloaders about every third one in the door was something stuck in the barrel.

[dverna]

Do an asset purchase. Do not buy the business. That will shield you from past liabilities. Get an attorney and a CPA.

Whatever time you estimate to get to break-even, double it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Do an asset purchase. Do not buy the business. That will shield you from past liabilities. Get an attorney and a CPA.

Whatever time you estimate to get to break-even, double it.

Excellent advice!!!!! Your mark ups need to be 110-120% above total cost to either do the work, or obtain and sell the product.

You must completely adhere to these numbers religiously! On every job or sale. Anything less and you will go broke.

Also, you really need to be able to assess your relative skill level, and not trying to be negative here, but it sounds like you don't have any. This is a problem as any gunsmithing skill that requires machine work or competent hand work, is not something you just pick up by being shown how to do it on one or two cases. It takes literally years of doing these operations to become competent enough to get it right the first time, every time. Kind of the reason why people go to a gunsmith in the first place.

Anyone can bolt on a scope and have a decent chance of getting it right. You can bolt on piece parts of a dizzying array with no more skill than the ability to use an Allen Wrench. No body really needs a gunsmith for this type of work and working on your AR is kind of part of the deal. Like Working on your Volks Wagon was in the 60's and 70's.

I am a highly skilled machinist/toolmaker with 35 years experience. I sweat blood when tapping holes in the Receiver of one of my essentially junk guns!!!!

Just handling someone else's expensive gun gives me chills knowing that if I sit it down on a metal chip or bump it on something I cause damage I can't easily fix. And this responsibility is what stopped me from becoming a Gunsmith along time ago.

Once again I am not trying to be negative here, but rather show you some of the reality of the road you are looking at going down.

You need schooling from a real school, 2 years minimum! Then you need to work under some one who actually knows what they are doing after that.

Only then would I consider going into business in this capacity. You are also going to need about $100K to get you thru the first year or so, unless you are independently wealthy and don't need to work anymore. As a one man shop your overhead is not just the shop expenses, it is your total expenses to live work and eat. Most people don't consider these extra costs when looking at going into business. You will consider them when you pay the bills at the end of the month.

Randy

[Mica_Hiebert]

My suggestion is to get your licenses squared away and buy the crappies beater truck guns you can in your area or off gun broker. Practis on those guns refurbishing them and doing gun smith work, trigger jobs, bedding, scope mount drilling/tapping muzzle breaks etc and sell them at enough profit to pay for your over head, then when you have the experience to work on customers guns with out ruining them I would open up for business.