H-110 in a 357mag

[DerekP Houston]

They are not magnum primers. They are regular small pistol primers. The brand is S&B from Cabela's. The cheap stuff. I reload for a reason. These primers have worked flawlessly in other applications. I'm starting to not like H-110. It shoots great, but it's expensive with the large load needed, dirty, and now I read requires mag primers.

Why not just load 38 specials then? That's the same brand I use and the reason I switched over. I leave the magnum stuff for the big boys, though I do have some h110 in the closet just in case...

Guess I need to grab some magnum primers as well to fit my magnum brass .

I believe the instructions you are looking for will be found in the reloading manual? It was very confusing for me at first as well, perhaps a mentor or someone in your area could assist you better than this. People here are generally fine to answer questions to the best of their ability but it isn't the same as getting data from a manufacture. That said, I doubt you could get 2 to agree on anything.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

296/110 not the best choice for light bullets. Ditto for the short barrel. I see in my 2016 Alliant 'Guide that BE-86 develops the top velocity for that weight bullet. It is a fairly fast powder, and that would help with reduced muzzle flash.

[wiljen]

Standard primers and light loads of H110 are a great way to demonstrate hangfires. I watched a guy use that exact formula in a 44 Blackhawk one day and you could hear the hammer fall on every round before the boom of the cartridge going off. Click-bang is not a good thing.

If you want to avoid the need for magnum primers I'd try 2400, SR-4759, or Ramshot enforcer. Those can all be lit with standard primers and 2400 and 4759 are more forgiving of light charges. Enforcer probably needs near full case but has worked for me with CCI standard primers.

[dragon813gt]

Is there a place where I can learn about the internal ballistics of all the various powders? Some say use 2400, some say use Blue Dot, some say no-no don't use blue dot with a light bullet, some say use Unique. I don't have time or money enough to try everything out. I can research things out but have been confused about the usefulness of the burn rate chart. Especially when I see seemingly contridictory information. For example, everyone say HP-38 IS W231. My experience confirms the truth of this fact. But then I see that the two powders are not listed next to each other on the burn rate chart. What's down with that??? Perhaps I totally misunderstand the purpose of the burn rate chart. But it's pretty much all I have to go by except for the loading data. Which is for bullets that I am not using. There has to be a better way of learning than by trial and error or asking for help everyday on the forum.

I highlighted two parts. It's not someone or everyone that says these things. It's the powder manufacturers that state these FACTS. The powder manufacturers are more than happy to answer your questions. Hodgdon will confirm which powders are exactly the same. And Alliant will confirm to not use Blue Dot w/ 125 grain bullets. You will also find there are no H110 published loads that use a standard small pistol primer. They all call for magnum primers.

What sucks is this information used to be front and center but it's hard to find anymore. Hodgdon had all types of warning on the acceptance page of their old online data center. When they switched to the current format it all went away. This is where the H110 warnings used to be. Alliant used to have the Blue Dot warning in their manual. I quickly looked through the current one and didn't see it. I may have overlooked it but it wasn't in any obvious places. The warning is specific to jacketed bullets. But I would apply it to cast as well. You get the same erratic ignition as H110 when using lightweight bullets w/ Blue Dot.

[Plane340]

Yes, I understand. But that still does not address the underlying problem of how to sort the fact from the opinion from the fiction without trial and error and calling the forum or the manufacturer every day. What I was hoping for is someone to say something like "Oh, you need to read (insert book title here)".

[bangerjim]

I really like H110 for 44mag and 357mag full house loads. If you do not like investing in mag primers, move on and do NOT use H110. Do not deviate from the recommended load data more than 3%.

I use it with great (sholder dislocating) success in all the above cals!

Just stick with the published load data. Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't mess with success.

banger

[DerekP Houston]

https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-49th-Ed...h+edition+book

If you are casting I'd recommend the above manual for reading and learning instead of the forums.

I use the following because it was a gift:

https://www.amazon.com/Reloading-Man...peer+reloading

You will find there is still some deviation but that is factual information that has been tested.

After reading a manual, you can use a wider variety of powders as you gain familiarity..hence the number of people here substituting powders and recommending *not* to use certain combo's from bad results.

*If* you are using hodgon brand powders, I also use the following to verify any particular combo's I have questions about:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

You can always call the makers of the powder and ask them directly as well. Personally I don't trust any loads I read on the internet if I haven't verified against a manual or pamphlet with load data direct from a manufacturer. If it matches the data I see, then sure I'll use it, if not...skip it and find another. Some powders are more sensitive than others and you'll also find some brand loyalty (only uses X powder, not Y just because). Do your own research whenever possible.

[dragon813gt]

hat I was hoping for is someone to say something like "Oh, you need to read (insert book title here)".

The books you want to read are every load manual you can find. Do the research and decide for yourself. We all have different components and guns. What works for me doesn't mean it will work for you. There are no shortcuts and it's called load development for a reason. Not trying to be discouraging. This is just the fact of the matter.

[Plane340]

That is the exact manual I have. The 49th edition. I have read it several times. It is also where I get most of my load data. I am not new to reloading. I loaded on a single stage press back in the late 80's and early 90's. Then I got married and had kids. Reloading fell to the side. I'm back now reloading, this time with a Dillon. Much of what I have learned I remember from back then, but I have never understood powder selection outside of looking at load data charts and going "enine minee mynee mo". That's how I ended up with H-110. I remember W-296 was a good powder for 357. I read online that H-110 is W-296. And off to the races we go. That's how I got where I am with this post. BTW, I learn many things from everyone's comments and am very thankful for everyone's input.

[triggerhappy243]

No where in my books does it show data for a cast lead 132 gr. Boolit using h-110. I see 125 gr. Jhp with h-110. 4 inch barrel as the test tube. Have you looked at power pistol? There is data for cast 120 gr. Linotype boolits.

[Blackwater]

Yes, I understand. But that still does not address the underlying problem of how to sort the fact from the opinion from the fiction without trial and error and calling the forum or the manufacturer every day. What I was hoping for is someone to say something like "Oh, you need to read (insert book title here)".

Actually, that's exactly the question many newbies face, and you're not the first and won't be the last. However, the answer is really pretty easy. Each powder has its own unique chemical composition, and also varies by how much deterrent coating its given by the mfgr. All these factors control how it's used and each powder's "perfect applications." We're extremely blessed to have the variety of powders we have today. I think we're up to nearly 200 different varieties now. Each has its own "perfect niche," too.

The only way to RELIABLY come to understand the applications each powder is best suited for, is to READ THE MANUALS and the manufacturers' comments and load data. There's no short cut. Reloading is a great pastime, hobby, education, but it REQUIRES a learning period, and that learning period never seems to end, really. The more you load and shoot, the more you learn, BUT, you CAN put together dangerous or unpleasant loads if you don't bother to learn what powders do best in what applications. It's not like choosing regular, mid or high test gas for your car. There's MUCH more variance in powders! And it's not "idiot proof," either. Some due diligence and discretion and judgment and knowledge IS required. This is NOT to discourage you. Just to set the stage and your attitude toward reloading and casting.

FWIW, I once used 18.6 gr. of 296 (same as H-110) with some 125 gr. JHP's, because it was the lowest listed "max" load I could find for the powder. I wanted all the velocity I could get from my then 6" barrel. I thought 296 would be the powder that would best give me that. I knew 296 (and its brother H-110) only worked best and efficiently at full mag. pressures, but hadn't at that time used it with lighter bullets in that caliber. I figured I'd just try it. Well, that didn't work out too well! That load produced a very prominent flame at the muzzle, and the muzzle blast seemed to wrap around the gun and blow back in my face! Not a pleasant thing! I never loaded any more of that powder with 125's, and wouldn't even try a higher pressure load to see if it'd put the flame out and tame the muzzle blast. It was THAT unpleasant!

H-110 and 296 are now the exact same powder sold in different cans, now that Hodgdon's bought out Win. powders. I only use it now with heavy bullets and full loads. It can be very unpleasant if you try to download it, and it's one of our more unique powders in that. Most powders are fine down to minimum charge levels and pressure, but 296/H-110 is one of those unique powders that has its own peculiar personality, and doesn't like to be downloaded or used with lighter bullets. In its place, with heavier bullets and high pressures, it's a marvel. Use it outside its intended parameters, and it'll be problematic, at best.

These are just the things that you have to learn. For many years, we were cautioned not to use H-4831 rifle powder in reduced amounts with cast or other bullets, because it had been observed that guns had been blown up using such loads. Nobody understood it, or why it was happening, but could only observe and analyze as the opportunity arose. From this, people were cautioned to stay away from H-4831 for reduced loads. That's another slow burning powder, but aimed at rifles instead of pistols, like H-110 is. Generally, the more slow burning the powder, the greater the charge wt. required to get a good load, and the less well it works with reduced loads. That may not always be true, but it's a good guide for a beginning reloader to follow until you know for sure.

Don't let any of this alarm you or turn you off reloading. Like I said, it's just a craft that requires a bit of a learning curve, and if you stick with posted data, and insure you load it exactly as shown, you'll not likely get into any trouble. The worst that will happen in that case is that the load might produce more flame and muzzle blast than you want, but you won't be in any danger. Start assuming when you don't know whether the assumption is valid or not, and you CAN get yourself in trouble! Don't do it! You're not knowledgeable enough yet to assume ANYTHING. And in chemistry (what powder is), things that seem "logical" don't always pan out as such, so again, don't ASSUME anything, ever! That'll keep you out of any real trouble. It's good to have questions, and thoughts, and to investigate them, but don't load anything that you don't have good, valid data from from a good source with a pressure gun to reliably test the data. DO NOT USE LOADS POSTED ON THE INTERNET!!! People commit typos, and some just don't have the judgment or knowledge to know when to quit, and post their data that "hasn't blown me up yet" and thus, you CANNOT trust any data you don't see in print from mfgr's and bullet companies. This is just good judgment and common sense, isn't it?

Good luck to you. You're getting started in a VERY interesting and fruitful hobby that can expand your understanding and appreciation for many things, chemistry and physics being only two of the many. And the more you learn, the more questions you'll have. That's good! But just don't go losing that good judgment and trying too much on your own without REALLY good indications that what you want to try is a good combination. Heed that, and you'll soon be shooting much better (with a little attention to what you're doing there) and doing it much more economically and you'll be shooting the exact same load all the time, which you can't do when the stores never seem to have your preferred loads in stock when you need them. You'll benefit in ways you've yet to even dream of! Good luck, and welcome to the board and the fraternity.

[DerekP Houston]

Guys I made the mistake of thinking he was new, he clearly just has more questions than answers at this point and RTFM ain't working. I encourage just posting a new thread and we will all assist to the best of our ability. He has decades more reloading experience than me I just wanted to try and help if possible. I've found no consistency at all somethings work just because they do , I let the manufacturers due all my testing and just follow them.

I have a shelf full of powders that were just darts thrown at the reloading manual.......if it was in stock and in my book I probably have at least a lb of it....if not two (one is none, two is one mindset). That does't include all the Western brand powders I bought and had to find more data for (zip, true blue, silhoutte). They weren't listed in my speer manual at all, but the LGS had em and was a fan.

That is the exact manual I have. The 49th edition. I have read it several times. It is also where I get most of my load data. I am not new to reloading. I loaded on a single stage press back in the late 80's and early 90's. Then I got married and had kids. Reloading fell to the side. I'm back now reloading, this time with a Dillon. Much of what I have learned I remember from back then, but I have never understood powder selection outside of looking at load data charts and going "enine minee mynee mo". That's how I ended up with H-110. I remember W-296 was a good powder for 357. I read online that H-110 is W-296. And off to the races we go. That's how I got where I am with this post. BTW, I learn many things from everyone's comments and am very thankful for everyone's input.

[wiljen]

There are some basic rules of thumb that can help some while learning. Understanding that these are generalizations and there will be exceptions.

1.) Ball powders usually meter more easily than stick powders through a measure.
2.) Ball powders usually do not tolerate reduced loads as well as stick powders.
3.) Powders slower than 4064 should not be used for reduced loads due to pressure excursions. (SEE)
4.) The larger the charge the more likely you need a magnum primer. (Compare to other rounds of the same geometry ie bottleneck rifle or straight wall rimmed pistol when deciding).
5.) Ball powders are more likely to need magnum primers than flake or stick. (Exception when using over 60gr almost everything needs mag primers - even stick powders).
6.) Bullets play a role in how much pressure is generated so different manuals will show different max charges. (Yes, the differences are real don't just select the highest load possible).
7.) Best accuracy is usually not found at the Maximum load. A lot of manuals state an accuracy load and most are more like 2/3 of the way between min and max.
8.) Burn rate charts are worthless when loading. Just because it says AA2495 and IMR 4895 have the same burn rate it doesnt mean you can use data from one for the other.
9.) Burn rate changes with Case shape. A classic example is red dot and bullseye. Check the charts and you will find these play leap frog due to differences in testing methods.
10.) You can almost never substitute a cast bullet into data for a jacketed bullet and get good results. If using cast bullets, use cast data. I have seen more frustrated shooters by just buying a box of cast bullets and substituting it for their favorite nosler partition load.

Hope this helps. Buy and download all the manuals you can get, they help give you an idea of the evolution of powders and of options. I still have several powders that haven't been sold in years (read 1970s Alcan) and they work fine if you have data for them.

[DerekP Houston]

There are some basic rules of thumb that can help some while learning. Understanding that these are generalizations and there will be exceptions.

1.) Ball powders usually meter more easily than stick powders through a measure.
2.) Ball powders usually do not tolerate reduced loads as well as stick powders.
3.) Powders slower than 4064 should not be used for reduced loads due to pressure excursions. (SEE)
4.) The larger the charge the more likely you need a magnum primer. (Compare to other rounds of the same geometry ie bottleneck rifle or straight wall rimmed pistol when deciding).
5.) Ball powders are more likely to need magnum primers than flake or stick. (Exception when using over 60gr almost everything needs mag primers - even stick powders).
6.) Bullets play a role in how much pressure is generated so different manuals will show different max charges. (Yes, the differences are real don't just select the highest load possible).
7.) Best accuracy is usually not found at the Maximum load. A lot of manuals state an accuracy load and most are more like 2/3 of the way between min and max.
8.) Burn rate charts are worthless when loading. Just because it says AA2495 and IMR 4895 have the same burn rate it doesnt mean you can use data from one for the other.
9.) Burn rate changes with Case shape. A classic example is red dot and bullseye. Check the charts and you will find these play leap frog due to differences in testing methods.
10.) You can almost never substitute a cast bullet into data for a jacketed bullet and get good results. If using cast bullets, use cast data. I have seen more frustrated shooters by just buying a box of cast bullets and substituting it for their favorite nosler partition load.
I believe I read it here somewhere, *if* you can find the same weight boolit in a jacketed load data. Take the minimum charge and reduce by 10% and work up your load. That is *only* if you can't find cast data for that particular round and does not account for finicky powders that don't take well to downloading. This is the dangerous part I am comfortable with now. I can recognize the recoil change and pressure signs on the cartridge and I am comfortable enough to risk my hand at it. In cases such as this I load 5 cases in a ladder type and test them as a single shot though.


Hope this helps. Buy and download all the manuals you can get, they help give you an idea of the evolution of powders and of options. I still have several powders that haven't been sold in years (read 1970s Alcan) and they work fine if you have data for them.

Agree with all above, just added my one personal caveat to #10.

[dragon813gt]

I will disagree w/ #8 and #10. A burn rate chart isn't worthless. It has little practical use but it still has some. Knowing how powders relate to each other can help when trying powder from another brand. This doesn't mean they will be equivalents. But knowing where they relate to each other has some value.

You can't just swap out a jacketed bullet w/ a cast one and expect the same results. But this doesn't mean that the jacketed data won't work. Start at the minimum and work up. Published loads are minimal when it comes to cast bullets. The Cast Bullet handbook has no NOE or Mihec molds so I'm completely off the book before I start.

Reloading isn't hard. Having multiple sources of load data really helps. Gather all of them and extrapolate what you need for your application. It seems people want to take shortcuts as much as possible. That statement isn't directed at anyone. But you see "shortcut" questions being asked on all the forums. I'm wondering what people would do w/out the internet

[bangerjim]

"......I'm wondering what people would do w/out the internet ......."

I know I sure would get a lot more work done!!!!!!!!!! It is amazing when I think and look back to the 70's and 80's and all the amazing things I built and made in my shop. And still worked a normal 8-5 engineering job and had a 35 minute commute each way.

The internet, with all it's amazing sources of info, is a HUUUUUUGE time-sink black hole!

banger

[Plane340]

All very good information. Back when I was loading years and years ago I was loading with a different motivation. I had a limited income, and I loaded for economy. Being roughly 18 at the time I did not have a huge need to learn the hobby properly. I got what I needed done so I could feed the two or three guns I had, and that was it. Now I have a new motivation. I load because I want to learn the hobby. Plus I load for many more calibers and for several different people. My knowledge base needs to be larger. The 10 guidelines are extremely helpful. I have decided my current load with H-110 will be changed to a load using Unique. It is a faster burning powder that should not flash as badly as the H-110 did. Also, it should tolerate downloading so that I can start at a safe place and work up to where I want to be. I hesitate to ask any more questions on this thread because I think it might be better to open a new thread.

[DerekP Houston]

All very good information. Back when I was loading years and years ago I was loading with a different motivation. I had a limited income, and I loaded for economy. Being roughly 18 at the time I did not have a huge need to learn the hobby properly. I got what I needed done so I could feed the two or three guns I had, and that was it. Now I have a new motivation. I load because I want to learn the hobby. Plus I load for many more calibers and for several different people. My knowledge base needs to be larger. The 10 guidelines are extremely helpful. I have decided my current load with H-110 will be changed to a load using Unique. It is a faster burning powder that should not flash as badly as the H-110 did. Also, it should tolerate downloading so that I can start at a safe place and work up to where I want to be. I hesitate to ask any more questions on this thread because I think it might be better to open a new thread.

your thread, your call mate =). Sounds like fine decision using unique! Sometimes threads gain a life of their own where many questions are asked and answered in rapid fire. Sometimes you open a new thread and no one sees it. Roll the dice and enjoy the fun.

My only concern would be "loading for different people". I don't personally take that risk nor want the liability. They can shoot my reloads in my guns with me present, or they can shoot my guns with factory ammo without me. If SHTF I don't want someone coming to me to replace a gun or a hand.

[Plane340]

My wife is not interested in pulling the handle on my Dillon. Neither are her friends that she likes to invite to the range. For her it as much a social gathering as anything. Since most of the guns she shoots I already have good loads that are reduced loads to begin with, I'm not too worried about it.

[wiljen]

I will disagree w/ #8 and #10. A burn rate chart isn't worthless. It has little practical use but it still has some. Knowing how powders relate to each other can help when trying powder from another brand. This doesn't mean they will be equivalents. But knowing where they relate to each other has some value.

You can't just swap out a jacketed bullet w/ a cast one and expect the same results. But this doesn't mean that the jacketed data won't work. Start at the minimum and work up. Published loads are minimal when it comes to cast bullets. The Cast Bullet handbook has no NOE or Mihec molds so I'm completely off the book before I start.

#8 Burn rate charts aren't useless and if you read my original post I specifically said "When Loading" and in that role I stand by my statement. One should never use a burn rate chart to substitute one powder for another.

#10 I said Use cast data, not necessarily data for that bullet but I'd feel a lot better starting with 30-06 data for a lyman 311407 and extrapolating to another 180gr cast bullet than taking data from a Jacketed bullet. Again, I think the advice is solid as most cast rifle loads are going to be between 1600 and 2100 fps and an awful lot of jacketed starting loads are way above that mark. If you started with Jacketed data, even at starting charges you would miss the sweet spot for most cast bullets.