Lead Ingot Motherload mystery.

[mkj4him]

A good friend recently discovered that an old gunsmithing aquaintance of ours had passed away. The gentelmans son was selling all his reloading/gunsmithing equipment and accessories in an estate sale. My friend purchased the entire setup. Since he is working in Alaska right now, everything went into storage, all except for the supply of lead ingots. He asked me to relocate them to my house for storage until his job contract ends in another year. I would be allowed to use as much of the "lead?" as I could. Here is a picture of the lead at the older gentleman's residence before moving to my house.

The BIG question is what the heck kind of alloy is it. I know the older gentleman shot high powered rifle with his lead cast bullets, so he used a lead/tin mix of some kind. I just don't know what amounts. Some of the lead is supposed to be pure lead, or at least pure WW. I just ordered a Lee hardness tester to help identify some of it I hope. I'm hoping some on here might help me identify what alloys I am dealing with. One thing that has me baffled is the ingot colors. They range from dark grey, as I would expect pure lead, or WW would be, to a shiny silver with hints of a yellow/gold color. Some are more yellow/gold than others. I weighed several samples that were approximately the same size and got significantly different weights, telling me there are definitely different alloys involved.
Here are some pics of the sample ingots. I wrote their weights in black on their sides.

Both are about same size, but darker ingot weighs 15 oz while silver/gold ingot weighs 10 oz. Any ideas?

Here's a good picture of several ingots in daylight showing some dark grey/silver and some silver/goldish yellow.

None of the ingots had smoothly filled bottoms, if that matter. Some ingots were even cracked across bottom. A few were even broken in half.

Some ingots had different markings stamped into them besides the SAECO mould mark. I'm guessing the "T" means some degree of TIN added. Any possibility if some of these ingots might be pure TIN? How would I tell?

These darker ingots could be pure lead or WW's. You can see the one slimmer ingot has "PL" stamped on it. I would guess "Pure Lead," maybe? Again, how can I tell if it is Pure and not WW?

I used my Cramer and Lee moulds to cast several 458 bullets with a handfull of the shiny silver/gold/yellow ingots, quenched in water. At first I was getting very shiny, but unfilled out bullets. Then some where coming out filled out, but frosted and none had very sharp edges. Then I noticed that some were coming out frosted and having the yellow/gold tint to them. Since all these "colors" were coming from the same ingots, I am thinking I may have turned the heat up too much. I ordered an RCBS thermometer along with the Lee hardness tester. They should be here in a couple days.

So...someone please chime in and help me determine what all these different color ingots might be, and what use I might put them to! Thanks for any help.

[montana_charlie]

Because the 'T' is so 'visible', and the ingots so silvery, I would not be surprised if they are tin.

Melt a small piece and see if it liquifies at a much lower temperature than lead.
If you can't measure temperature, place a piece of 'lead' and a piece of 'tin' in the same cold, empty, pot, then see which one melts first.

[RogerDat]

That gold tint is typical of pewter ingots. As is the high gloss finish. Or possibly some of the high tin printers lead. Which because of the antimony can cast differently in pure form.



In the casting alloys lead is the heaviest ingredient. Thus your 5 oz. difference in weight for same size ingot indicates the one has a higher lead content. The other more of something else which is less dense than lead. The melt temperature will help but is most effective with alloys of only two metals or a single metal. Tin does drop the melt temp so melting at lower temp is an indicator.

Lead oxidizes and gets the black and grey coating, tin reduces that tendency. But then more or less moisture exposure can also make a difference, but in general more corrosion = more lead. Plain vs. WW's the difference in corrosion may not be all that striking, either one against pewter or linotype the difference will be more noticeable. Printers lead with high tin content stays shiny in garage, plain lead is black and chalky in a matter of weeks. 50/50 WW's and plain + tin is someplace in between.

You might try and sort some ingots by weight that appear to be same size. Then have a sample from each weight group pile tested with XRF gun. There are members that will do this for a pound of any lead per sample. As will some scrap yards for free. You should then by weight and appearance be able to sort the rest with a fair amount of accuracy. By appearance I mean the way the bottoms formed and shine, when combined with weight should allow you to end up with a fairly decent supply of sorted lead and alloy. Or at least sorted well enough for a government job.

To my eye much of that looks like very good alloy.

[RogerDat]

I would add something else that P looks like it is from a potter brand mold. Hard to see in my pictures but I have the same P from a potter clone I use for pewter, now the stuff stamped on yours in addition to the P from the mold indicates something the original caster wanted to note, at least enough to stamp it into the ingots.

[bangerjim]

Since they are cast by an individual, you have no idea what is in there.

Best thing is to sort by weigh/color and take a sample of each to a scrap yard and have an x-ray done to get the exace % contents. The only REAL way you will ever know for sure.

Too bad the old guy did not mark them like I do...with metal stamps! And have a key posted on my shop wall as to the letter coding. But I could care less when I am 6 feet under if my kids know what they are made of. They are not into casting or guns at all.

Good luck figuring out what those are!!!!!!!! You're gonna need it. Pictures do not really help in metallurgy identification.

banger

[runfiverun]

that gold color is for sure a sign of a high tin content.
if he was using lead and tin for rifle shooting [30-06 type rifles] I would guess at 1-10.
if it was more like scheutzen shooting I'd guess 20 or 30-1.
the gold ingots could just be mixed alloy that was poured at high temperature.

I'd give the P marked ones the drop test and listen for the TUD sound.

[mkj4him]

that gold color is for sure a sign of a high tin content.
if he was using lead and tin for rifle shooting [30-06 type rifles] I would guess at 1-10.
if it was more like scheutzen shooting I'd guess 20 or 30-1.
the gold ingots could just be mixed alloy that was poured at high temperature.

I'd give the P marked ones the drop test and listen for the TUD sound.

I have an idea, but could you please expound upon the "thud" test?

[RogerDat]

Second to last image in OP, there are what looks like two letters stamped in one end of the P ingot. Along the lines of what Banger has described. I just can't make out the letters. Could be PL except the L is facing wrong way. Or R and something. PL makes me think printers lead but the picture angle is wrong to really read those two stamped letters.

[mkj4him]

Second to last image in OP, there are what looks like two letters stamped in one end of the P ingot. Along the lines of what Banger has described. I just can't make out the letters. Could be PL except the L is facing wrong way. Or R and something. PL makes me think printers lead but the picture angle is wrong to really read those two stamped letters.

It is a PL but the L is turned. I was assuming it meant Pure Lead. So is Printers Lead different from Linotype?

[Drm50]

If the bottoms are different out of same ingot mold, it means mold was not totally filled. Totally filled on level surface ingots will be joined by thin flash. This probaly has more to do with weight
varience than the alloy.

[mkj4him]

Ok. I cast some with both "PL" and "Tin=Silver/Gold" alloy, using Lee C457-500-F mould.

Not sure if I got the temp right, but was able to get some bullets to compare.

"TIN?" alloy dropped bullets with average L=1.204", average Diameter = .461", average weight= 336 grains

The "PL" ingots dropped average L=1.203", diameter = .460", weight= 482.5 grains
So the PL is obviously heavier. Does this help with any of the guess work?

[bangerjim]

I still tell you........x-ray analysis......if you really MUST know. ONLY way to know. Sorry. There are those on here that will do the analysis for a price. All my scrap yards do it for free.

You will spend lots of time scratching and weighing and dropping and measuring and color analyzing and measuring melt temps....but you still will not know for sure. Just do the analysis.

banger

[mkj4him]

I still tell you........x-ray analysis......if you really MUST know. ONLY way to know. Sorry. There are those on here that will do the analysis for a price. All my scrap yards do it for free.

You will spend lots of time scratching and weighing and dropping and measuring and color analyzing and measuring melt temps....but you still will not know for sure. Just do the analysis.

banger

Thanks for your suggestion. I will look into it. Not sure where around here to take it for X-Ray, but I can ask around. No idea what or if they charge for the service. I'm inclined to just cast bullets, and test with Lee hardness tester to get within range needed. My only concern is if I ended up casting bullets made out of pure tin, or a higher than 1-10 ration of tin. I'm loading mainly for 458 socom, heavy bullets going subsonic. I'd prefer softer so as to get some expansion, if possible. All that tin is going to mess that up.

[scottfire1957]

Banger is correct. Everything else is a guess, some probably close, but still a guess.

[Cowboy_Dan]

If the boolits cast of the "PL" sample are well filled out, I would guess it more likely stands for "printer's lead" than "plain lead". Printer's lead, though, could refer to a range of alloys, so an xrf analysis is still warranted. Just call the local scrap yards and ask if they have an xrf gun and if they will analyze some lead samples for you.

[Frank46]

Saeco used to sell tin in the exact same ingots 1lb's as you have shown in your pics. Reason I say this as I found three in my goodie cabinet. Even after all these years they still have the silvery gold color. Frank

[mkj4him]

If the boolits cast of the "PL" sample are well filled out, I would guess it more likely stands for "printer's lead" than "plain lead". Printer's lead, though, could refer to a range of alloys, so an xrf analysis is still warranted. Just call the local scrap yards and ask if they have an xrf gun and if they will analyze some lead samples for you.

I've been calling around to the local scrap yards, and while they do have an xrf gun, they are, shall we say, less than enthusiastic to provide help.

The bullets I cast with both the "tin" ingots and the PL ingots both came out frosted. I tried lower and higher temps, but none came out shiny and crisp. Also, I looked up melting point of tin and lead. Tin is much lower, but what would be the melting point of a proper tin lead alloy (1-10) or say, WW's? I'm just trying to determine if I have alloy ingots with high tin content, or if they are pure tin.

[JimB..]

For simplicity you could assume that they are Tin, lead, or a mix of those ignoring other potential components. Weigh each one carefully. Determine the volume of each carefully (I'd do it by dropping them into a graduated cylinder and seeing how much the water rises). The resulting density will tell you the proportion of elements. If nothing else you can sort by density and then have samples tested.

[DerekP Houston]

this solution brought to you by redneck laziness

Mix it all up in one giant batch then send a sample ingot + 1 lb for payment to orisolo. Adjust from there! .

[OS OK]

I have an idea, but could you please expound upon the "thud" test?

Lead sounds like thump, drop it from waist high to concrete...lead= thump or thud
Tin or Antimonial lead= tink...has a higher pitch like...once you drop a few the sound will be distinctive.
Won't tell content other than one is harder than the other.

Drop them so they will hit on long narrow end, drop all of them the same way.