Fastest quickdraw shooter-- Bob Munden

[44man]

That he was and he taught all the western shooters in movies. But fast draw back then was not true. It is a more modern thing. Cowboys never did it. Lawmen were just better shots. Calm and aim better without fear. Thell might have been the first and best. Fast draw did not exist in the 1800's.

[kenyerian]

I've enjoyed following all of the great shooters since the mid 60's. Dad subscribed to a lot of magazines back then and the articles on Thell Reed was the reason a lot of my friends and I got into revolvers. And yes, one of my friends did manage to shoot himself drawing. Thankfully it was a minor wound. This post has brought back many memories of the good times we had.

[kelbro]

I can confirm that the picture tube in a console Magnavox color TV will not stop a .45 Colt wax boolit. That stunt made for a danged long winter.

[Nick Quick]

Wax bullets are the least dangerous bullets, yet you don't want to get shot with one of them .45LC propelled by a 209 primer. No powder, just the primer and the wax. It hurts bad I can tell you that, fortunately only for the first 5 minutes. The sucker flies with over 600fps and the wound look quite ugly.
The nastiest is a .38 bullet propelled by a .22 blank. That will go inside the flesh unlike the big brother .45 who will only do a surface damage. The 22/38 goes with well over 1200 fps and hurts in hard to describe way.
But with all these, if I would have to chose what to be shot with between a wax bullet and a black powder blank I will take the wax without even thinking. I won't give any public details on wounds by blanks.

[EDK]

Bill Ogelsby is a d*** good shooter to watch. (He's a stocky little rascal, like Bob Munden and Ed McGivern.) He used a VAQUERO and five hits on a steel plate when you'd have sworn to four rounds going off.
Jerry Miculek is another great shooter to watch. He doesn't play favorites either. He was pretty eloquent about my current favorite, the GLOCK 41, on YouTube.

[Murphy]

I stand with Nick Quick in regards to Ernie Hill being the record holder. Many, have never heard of Ernie. I knew more about his holsters back in the 80's & 90's than his quick draw abilities. I was a bit surprised like many others to find out Bob Munden was not the fastest on record. As Nick pointed out, get the facts. Bob was a heck of a guy and an awesome shooter no doubt. But as others have said, he was great as self promotion as well. Nothing wrong with that and he did make a living doing so.

Ed McGivern has been overlooked and unheard of by many as well. I purchased his book "Fast & Fancy Revolver Shooting" in the late 70's. Within two weeks, I managed to put 44 out of 50 rounds on a playing card at 10 feet following Mr. McGiverns hip shooting instructions. Ed was never timed on his draw, but one has to wonder if he wasn't in all reality the fastest? Guess we'll never know the answer to that.

Jerry Miculek is undoubtedly an amazing individual. However, if it were possible to rise the dead and bring Ed McGivern back to watch Jerry empty a sixgun with blinding speed? I'm sure Ed would congratulate him on his excellent shooting and then ask a simple question "Why are you using two hands sir?"

Murphy

[Hickory]

Miculek is something else. I think we will find out later he is part machine.

Not even the Terminator could shoot that fast or good.

[Blackwater]

Munden's guns also had somewhat stronger springs powering the hammer, didn't he?

All I know is that, if Munden didn't compete in the fast draw assn's matches, he's STILL the fastest man alive with a gun, period. There's a mood afield these days, that taking down those who excel adds to one's "creds." I've never thought that way. Munden EARNED his reputation, and whether he held any assn's records or not, he surely demonstrated that he actually WAS the fastest man alive.

One thing many don't realize is how strong he had to be to do what he did, AND flexible and conditioned to boot. If you watch him shooting a .45 auto with full facory loads, he manages to keep the recoil down quite handily. Let's see anyone here do that who wants to take anything away from Munden! I dare you! And that's all I've got to say about that.

Mk 42 guner was right, too. When I decided to get into law enforcement (and later got into other fields instead), I figured it'd behoove me to get to be as fast as I could. This was difficult because I knew darned well the risks of a single "bad move" in a fast draw. I was also using standard type holsters and not ones specially designed to come out as fast as possible. All this added to my slowness. The fear of a bad shot more than anything. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." And as Mk 42 said, I practiced with an empty gun until I was SURE I wasn't going to shoot myself. It took a long time - too long, but at least I was consistently working toward a decent and achievable goal, and getting "better" slowly. Finally, I tried live rounds, and usually at least 2 targets, down on the lower 40, usually turning at least 90 degrees, drawing and firing in one smooth motion, and moving to and engaging the 2nd target ASAP. This got to be really instructive, and taught me a lot of appreciation for just how to practice and how to get better as quickly as humanly possible. And Mk 42 has it right - go for the smoothness, and the speed will develop. I never had to draw quickly, since I went into a LE related field, but a time or two, knowing I could, let me handle a situation more easily and smoothly than would otherwise have been possible if I didn't KNOW what I could have done. And I was considerably faster than any of the bad guys I ever dealt with, but never fast enough if they already had a gun in hand. Bill Jordan was THAT fast, and regularly proved it in his "dog and pony shows," as he called them. Time and time again, he'd give a person a SA loaded with blanks and cocked, and he'd stand with hands by his side, and draw from a concealed conventional open top holster on his side, from beneath his sport coat, and fire, before the person holding the SA on him could simply pull the trigger.

There's a "secret" to that. He only had to make up his mind WHEN to draw, and the person holding the SA had to wait for him to move to react. So he had the advantage of not having to factor in reaction time, since it was his action that initiated the string of events. The SA holder had to perceive and react, and THEN pull the trigger. All Jordan had to do was draw and fire. But even so, I doubt there is anyone here (certainly not ME!) who'd want to try that particular stunt. You DO still have to be AWFULLY fast! And Jordan was. And he used it to deadly effect a time or two. In one case, he put on a demonstration inside a courtroom, or showed a video of him doing so, to convince a jury who was deciding a case of a deputy or sheriff friend of his, that the sheriff actually COULD have drawn and fired "against the drop" and killed the man he was on trial for having killed. The whole trial boiled down to charges having been pressed because nobody believed the Sheriff had drawn and fired against the drop, and Jordan's demonstration won the case for his friend. When asked on the stand if he knew the Sheriff and had seen him draw, and if so, how fast was he, Jordan said, "At least as fast as I am and maybe just a shade faster." And he said it very matter of factly.

In our world of today, many discount the acts of others that they can't duplicate. This is foolhardy! Just because I can't do what I've seen some others do is NO reason to try to take away from their achievements! Never will be. Yet, many seem to take joy in this. So did ancient Rome like to destroy their heroes. It didn't end well for Rome, and won't for us if we keep it up. It's fine to question incredible feats, and ask for proof, but once it's delivered, continuing to detract from great achievements is .... well, it's not a good thing. That's my view of it, anyway.

[Drm50]

Amen to that. On the subject of McGivern's records, Jerry Miculek himself doesn't compare his
records against McGiverns, because of the difference in guns, timers, ect. There was a lot of
difference over the the time between Edd & Jerry. All these guys earned their spot in history,
why would a person want to tear them down. I was never interested in fast draw, but if you
practice as outlined in Fast& Fancy, you will be able to do a lot of the "tricks" of E.McGivern.

[44man]

Consider the weight of a .45 from the holster. To do what they did would make you bleed to death.
Years of practice and pain, why would you denigrate anyone. Only if you can do better and it is sure not me.
McGivern was a frail and sick man and through work and pain, he overcame it. Maybe a few words of prayer would be best. We lost Bob too early.
Why are some so mean to say bad?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Wax bullets are the least dangerous bullets, yet you don't want to get shot with one of them .45LC propelled by a 209 primer. No powder, just the primer and the wax. It hurts bad I can tell you that, fortunately only for the first 5 minutes. The sucker flies with over 600fps and the wound look quite ugly.
The nastiest is a .38 bullet propelled by a .22 blank. That will go inside the flesh unlike the big brother .45 who will only do a surface damage. The 22/38 goes with well over 1200 fps and hurts in hard to describe way.
But with all these, if I would have to chose what to be shot with between a wax bullet and a black powder blank I will take the wax without even thinking. I won't give any public details on wounds by blanks.

Well I'll give some. Surgeon-Col. La Garde (of the Chicago stockyard and cadaver trials which resulted in the adoption of the .45ACP, conducted the following experimental program:

"In some experiments on animals we succeeded in communicating tetanus in 69.5 per cent, of the cases by methods as follows: The experiments were conducted with the .22-caliber toy-pistol. An artificial tetanus earth was made by mixing 1 quart of sterile earth with one agar-agar culture, after the toxin had been destroyed by heating at 65° C. for five minutes. The animals were shot in the fleshy part of the thigh.

(a) Transmission by Infecting Black Gunpowder. — One-half grain of tetanus earth was mixed with the powder in each of three blank cartridges with which three white rats were shot at a distance of 2 inches. Two out of the three animals developed tetanus and died on the fifth and sixth days respectively.

(b) Transmission by Infecting the Wads with Tetanus Earth. — Four wads were infected on their outer surface with a half grain each of the earth. Four rats were shot into as stated above. Two died immediately from shock and the other two succumbed to tetanus five days later.

(c) Transmission by Placing the Earth on the Projectile. — The latter were infected by placing the earth in three grooves running parallel with the long axis of the bullet. Three rabbits shot died with typical symptoms of tetanus on the sixth, seventh and eighth days respectively. Out of three guinea-pigs shot in the same way two died on the sixth and seventh days.

(d) Transmission by Placing i Grain of the Tetanus Earth in the Barrel. — Three white rats were shot at 2 inches with blank cartridges. Two of the animals died from tetanus on the fifth day.

(e) Transmission by Shooitng a Blank Cartridge Through a
Piece of Gauze Previously Contaminated with the Tetanus Earth, the Gauze lying Against the Part. — Out of five white rats shot in this manner three succumbed to tetanus on the fifth and sixth days.

(f) Transmission by Placing 1 Grain of Wet Tetanus Earth on the skin of the Animal at the Point Penetrated by the Charge. — Four animals were thus shot with blank cartridges, two dying of typical tetanus on the fifth and sixth days.

(g) Transmission by Infecting Smokeless Powder. — The powder was infected as stated under (a). Three white rats were shot at a range of 2 inches. One of them developed tetanus on the fifth day and eventually recovered. The other two were negative.

The control animals, shot in the above manner without the use of tetanus earth, gave negative results without exception. As stated already the fatality from tetanus attending these experiments aggregates 69.5 per cent. It is fair to assume that this percentage would have been greater with a pure culture of tetanus. The artificial tetanus earth was used to simulate the actual conditions under which tetanus infections usually occur.

We also found that in those cases where the shots were delivered at contact or thereabouts, exhibiting burning or scorching from the ignition of the black powder, the development of tetanus was almost invariable, showing that the coagulation necrosis following burn augments the tendency to the development of tetanus infection.

From the foregoing we felt justified in attributing the occurrence of tetanus in toy-pistol wounds to the presence of infection in the ontaminated dust of the street, which found lodgement on the clothing, hands, etc., of those who engage in the use of toy-pistols and pyrotechnics."

It seems hard on the rats, which didn't ask to be rats. But it did a whole lot more good than the animal testing for commercial gain which is so controversial nowadays. La Garde was able to inflict tetanus pretty reliably by infecting just about any part of the cartridge, but found that tetanus could result when they were sterile. The dust of the street in his day consisted largely of dried horse droppings, one of the main vectors of tetanus. But some people live on farms. He got similar results with anthrax too. It is a good argument against failing to declare even a trifling gunshot or blank cartridge injury. I wouldn't trust wax either, with any kind of skin penetration. One reason .22 rimfires are fatal out of proportion to their size, is that the external lube can pick up just about anything.

There used to be a sport of mock dueling with wax bullets, most often in the .44 or the French 11mm. revolver cartridge. They may sometime have been used in revolvers, but I have seen a pair of beautiful single-shot target pistols with steel hand-guards, which would probably have made excellent target pistols with lead bullets. Coats, gloves and wire mesh masks were generally worn, and I would guess glasses behind the mesh. Unless perhaps in Russia, where they were a bit casual about life, limb and alcoholic refreshment, and didn't call that other game Russian roulette for nothing.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I stand with Nick Quick in regards to Ernie Hill being the record holder. Many, have never heard of Ernie. I knew more about his holsters back in the 80's & 90's than his quick draw abilities. I was a bit surprised like many others to find out Bob Munden was not the fastest on record. As Nick pointed out, get the facts. Bob was a heck of a guy and an awesome shooter no doubt. But as others have said, he was great as self promotion as well. Nothing wrong with that and he did make a living doing so.

Ed McGivern has been overlooked and unheard of by many as well. I purchased his book "Fast & Fancy Revolver Shooting" in the late 70's. Within two weeks, I managed to put 44 out of 50 rounds on a playing card at 10 feet following Mr. McGiverns hip shooting instructions. Ed was never timed on his draw, but one has to wonder if he wasn't in all reality the fastest? Guess we'll never know the answer to that.

Jerry Miculek is undoubtedly an amazing individual. However, if it were possible to rise the dead and bring Ed McGivern back to watch Jerry empty a sixgun with blinding speed? I'm sure Ed would congratulate him on his excellent shooting and then ask a simple question "Why are you using two hands sir?"

Murphy

He undoubtedly would have congratulated him, too. McGivern considered himself to be a pretty ordinary person who had put a bit of thought and a lot of time and trouble into a hobby that wasn't everybody's. But he never claimed, and I don't believe he even imagined, that he had a special talent - although I think he had. He was the man who took the big step from often spurious dime-novel lore, and made the fast draw into a science. I'm reminded of Roger Bannister running the long-elusive four-minute mile in 1954. Soon numerous others were able to do it, because they knew it was possible.

I know of Bill Jordan's courtroom performance, and it reminds us that as well as an instinct for someone meaning them harm being vital in the Old West (and subsequently), so was an ability not to signal one's punches. It's easier for a psychopath, for the genuine article doesn't suffer from nerves anything like as much as a normal person. But it is something the normal gunfighter must have had to cultivate.

Part of the dime-novel mystique, I think, was to always watch their eyes. In my long-gone university fencing days people behind wire mesh didn't have eyes, but the signs were there, to be detected or faked.

[McLintock]

I started fast drawing in 1956, when all the adult westerns came on TV and fast draw got popular. Made my own leather, trying to duplicate Arvo Ojala's design, used a beer can for the metal insert to give it rigidity, they were made out of tin, not aluminum, in those days. My gun was a Ruger Single Six and it was given to me by my uncle, couldn't afford anything else. I remember Thell Reed, asked about in an earlier post, and as I remember it, he did a draw in .1 second, starting when the light went off, and ending when his bullet hit the plate on the timer. He was supposed to be the fastest fast draw guy around in those days. My fastest time was .28 seconds, plus I have a lead .22 bullet still in my leg, just above the knee from when I got too fast for my britches.
McLintock

[jmort]

This is all speculation and what ifs. They all are amazing.