Cast or JHP for defense?

[Fleataxi]

I've got an interesting question for the forum.

I've been told that in the ,45acp round, a cast bullet (trunicated cone or round nose) will perform as well as a jacketed hollow point of equal weight as a defensive round.

I need opinions, citiations, etc.

I've been reloading for a short while, and a friend of mine got me started using recycled wheel weight 230gr truncated cone lead bullets in my Rock Island 1911 TAC for practice ammo. I bought a box of 100 200gr Speer Gold Dot bullets only to be told by the same friend that the cast bullets work equally well as defensive rounds since they mushroom on impact to about the same diameter as the JHP expands to.

Did I just waste $24?

I'm loading the 200gr Gold Dot over 6 grains of Ramshot ZIP for an expected velocity of 900 fps.

The cast bullet is a 230gr truncated cone over 5.5 grains of Ramshot ZIP with an expected velocity around 870 fps.

Fleataxi

[Lead melter]

Fleataxi [gotta love the name], welcome to the board!

Many years have passed since John Browning introduced the world to the 1911 and the 45ACP, and many bad guys have had a more thorough introduction to said round. It has worked in RN FMJ configuration for almost a hundred years, and if it will work in FMJ it will also work in "cast boolit".

As far as expansion goes, that might be a bit iffy. The hardening of the alloy to get the boolit to hold shape, size, etc. will also work in opposition to the expansion idea. There are, however, ways to overcome this. The simplest being to cast just hard enough to retain the boolit integrity and test for expansion.

One of the standard recipes here is 50/50 wheelweight/pure lead for 45 and 9mm. I cast some .358" boolits a few weeks ago from a 158 grain SWC mold. Average weight was 166 grains. Loaded these atop 4 grains Unique for a 2" barrel Charter Arms. They were fired into a Cabela's catalog at 8 feet distance. I also fired a 125 grain JSP, a 140 grain cast HP, and a 130 grain ball load. None exited the catalog. The ball load penetrated the deepest at about 1", while the HP, JSP, and cast SWC each drove in about 3/4". The SWC expanded to almost 1", the JSP to about 3/4", and the HP simply lost the front of the slug.

Did one do better than the others? Expansion of the SWC was really good, but penetration also must be there.

Keep your 45 loads up about 800-900 fps, find a backstop and give it a try.

By the way, a purchase of projectiles is NEVER a waste of money.

[Fleataxi]

leadmelter:

Some more info - the bullets are 100% recycled wheel weight, water quenched. No hardness tester, so no clue as to the actual hardness #.

BTW: Fleataxi is from "All Dogs Go to Heaven" - I'm a dog lover and had 3 big adorable mutts when I thought up the handle, and I've used it ever since.

Fleataxi

[Ricochet]

Not a chance that quench hardened wheelweight boolits will expand in the .45. But even if they don't expand, I expect they'll be effective.

[HeavyMetal]

If your gun will cycle semi wadcutter's relaiblely (100%) I'd go with one of those.

Had a young man do some testing for a science class a few years ago, he wanted do do something that involved shooting.

So his dad and I set up some plywood targets ( 3/4 inch thick 12X12 ) stacked 12 layers thick.

We shot them with 38 snubby, 45 ball and my load of 4.8 gr. WW452AA on a H&G 68 and a 45/70 contender.

Won't talk about the contender load it went through the plywood into the dirt bank we were using as a backstop followed along the grass like a gopher on steriods and exited the hill 25 yards down range with a divot the size of a cow pie! Bullet was my own casting 325 gr RCBS boolit!

The real surprise was that the H&G 68 went through 11 pieces of plywood the 45 ball only 9 1/2! Great demonstraion the kid set up!

He layed a bunch of duct tape along one side of the plywood stack and you could open it like a book during his presentation.

The cool part was the H&G 68 was not deformed in any way! Good sharp edge to cut a clean hole and plenty flat to transfer energy.

Just a thought.

[randyrat]

Your best chance with a jury is to "laywer Up" and go with store bought bullets. Unless by self defense you mean against wild animals then i would use cast. I'm not even afraid of Big Foot or the Blue Hills moster hiking with my 45 and cast boolits..... Thats my opinion and i'm sticking to it.

[James C. Snodgrass]

I'm with Randyrat on this if you shoot a thug it better be store bought or suffer the wrath of a ambulance chasin' dirt bag in court.

[mooman76]

I'm not saying it couldn't or wouldn't happen but there has never been a documented case where they went after someone for using reloads in self defence. Personally I use factory loads for my self defence guns just for peace of mind but I wouldn't hesitate to use hand loads if I needed to.

[carpetman]

This subject of store bought vs reloads in defense situations and the lawyer aspect has been often discussed. Our moderator who used to be Dep Al he is something else AL now was a detective and has been a witness in court many times----his take is the type ammo has never been an issue. You use a gun in defense and the ammo is not going to be a legal concern probably no more so than the brand of tires on your car if you run over somebody.

[NSP64]

Won't matter as long as it's a .45

[MtGun44]

I would think that the main issue with cast would be overpenetration.

I LIKE "over" penetration when hunting, but in a public place where there may
well be others that are not bad guys. - it is not a good thing.

You must remember that every round fired has a lawyer attached - if you
kill the bad guy and the same bullet puts a 9 year old girl 50 yds away in a
wheelchair for life . . . . . . - more likely with hard cast boolits than JHPs.

I only carry factory JHPs in my sef defense CCW firearms.

If you worry about any of the "he shot my poor deceased client with DUM-DUM
BULLETS !!!!" - all you need is to get the local PD range office on the stand
and ask why they use these hollow point bullets - 'why to prevent
overpenetration and increase the safety of the public' is the typical answer.

Bill

[runfiverun]

it is not what ya shot them with .its the ya shot them,
if you don,t want the bullets to go through the guy and a wall use the expandables
if you want penetration use the cast.

[testhop]

i have used the 452460 and 452374 with 6.5 unique also i have the speer 200 h.p.if i was going use one for house defence i would use the speer just because of relible feed
as for the legal part the lawyers will say if you use handloads you are wrong eather cast or h.p. it is the same but i say be the only one talking when the police get there
I READ SOMEWHERE THAT A 9 M.M. MAY EXPAND BUT A 45WONT SRINK

[GabbyM]

Gold Dots are a product of the FBI standards.

You're better off with a truncated cone flat point you can count on behaving in a predictable manner.

USAF trials back in the eighties. Showed a 9mm tcfp blows a larger hole in ballistic clay than a 45 round nose. Plus has more penetration. Probably why the standard issue 9mm for the M9 is a round nose from a century gone by. It does meet the NATO ball standard of penetrating 16 inches of spaced pine board. And not to forget kicks hard enough to cycle a MP-40. Good grief.

If you want to use store bought bullets get Hornady FMJ-FP.

For cast take a look at Saeco in the 45's. For 9mm it's harder to find. I managed to pick up a H&G #309 which is the Air force bullet just like the Hornady fmj-fp.
Balisti-Cast will make you a new one. Or a WFN in either caliber.

Lee and Saeco calling their 9mm offerings flat point are stretching the term a bit. More like RCBS accurate description of conical.

[yondering]

Those 200gr Gold Dot's are a good bullet for defense, if pushed fast with top loads they do expand reliably and penetration will be less than a cast bullet but still plenty for defense purposes. Unless you're just trying to keep recoil down, you can (and should, for hollow points) do better than 900 fps for that 200gr bullet. If your 1911 is the full size with the 5" barrel, you should be able to push them to 1,000 or 1,050 fps without trouble. I use a hot load of Power Pistol with these for about 1,100 fps in my 1911. This is a top load for my gun, but recoil is by no means harsh or uncontrollable.
For comparison, Hornady offers loaded .45 ammo with their 200gr hp at 1,050 fps.

[GabbyM]

I get a kick out of you all that have eveything in little boxes. You know just what you'll be shooting at right down to the time of day. You watch a Dirty Harry movie then spend the next twenty years searching for a bullet to shoot that naked rapist runing down the alley. lol
Just like the FBI.

The OP asked if he waisted his $24 dollars. I'll answer yes. Since you surely hope you never shoot that naked rapist anyway. Those golden bullets will get coroded in your pocket. One thing about a 45 is you don't need a fancy bullet to make them work.

I saw a few weeks ago where Winchester signed a contract with the FBI for bullets. A few million dollars for just a couple of years. Adds up fast at a dollar a pop. I'm just a poor boy that cooks my own.

[JSnover]

Do you really save much by tailoring your own defensive loads, though? By the time you get it right you've been through a couple of casting sessions and burned some powder, primers, made up some sort of penetration test setup, etc.
That's all good stuff if you feel like doing it. On the other hand, unless you're living in a combat zone, one box of store-bought per year seems to be plenty. So far mine all end up in the backstop every spring.

[mold maker]

If you carry enough gun, any load, shot by a well practiced shooter, will work.
Secret is, "ya gotta hit the bad guy", under stress and excitement.

[JBL]

I think the main concern for a defensive cartage is not expansion, velocity or bullet design but reliability. HeavyMettle Touched on this. Especially if you’re new to hand loading, you will make mistakes and an armed confrontation is a bad place to do ammo testing. My suggestion (and what I do) is to keep your PDW loaded with what you normally shoot. I would rather target loads that I know works every time the some jewiz bang load that fails 1 out of a hundred shots.

Remember to that shot placement is much more critical that bullet choice. Seems to me that back in the 70’s there was an incident were a wealthy man (I think a Dupont) want nuts at his estate. The cops wouldn’t get within a few hundred yard of the mansion because he was armed with his 22 target pistol and was a mater class Bullseye shooter. They knew he could make body shots at 200 yards and head shots at a 100 yards.

My point is, yes you wasted your money unless you’re going to buy a few thousand of them. Keep your PDW loaded with what’s familiar and reliable and learn to put where it counts.

[dwtim]

I don't trust my own hand loads enough to bet my life on them. I'd rather just buy a box of defense rounds and leave them next to the gun. I've only had a single misfire, still enough little problems that I wouldn't be comfortable with the situation. Maybe after another 10 years of loading I'll reconsider.

However... If I need ammo fast, I'll grab whatever is nearest.