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Thread: Alliant Powder .. Worst answer ever from a powder company

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    Kdiver, I think you have a point with your first post. Their response is generic and really doesn't even address the real issue, they have no data for a magnum pistol cartridge using their own powder.

    Condescending previous comments aside, and there were several, it's fine for a company to have limited data, they just need to respond effectively.

    Example: My office manages the fish populations in area lakes. We don't manage the parks around them. Yet we get calls about park reservations and just about anything you can imagine. My crew members COULD respond like the gentleman from Alliant, OR they can be helpful. "I'm sorry, we don't manage the parks around Lake X, but these people do and here is their number." Or "I'm sorry, we don't regulate the duck hunting at Lake Y, but these people do, the drawing is in August, and the website is . . .".

    So in the case of Alliant, "I'm sorry, that is a relatively new powder and we haven't developed loads for every cartridge. While we haven't tested loads and can't tell you what is safe and what is not for that cartridge, you could check with your bullet manufacturer to see if they have data"

    This is the minimum I would expect. They are a Customer Service rep after all.
    "Is all this REALLY necessary?"

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL View Post
    Blue Dot has been noted for occasional "squirrelliness" since it came onstream in the mid-1970s. I recall an article published by Bob Milek soon after the powder's introduction regarding its usage in the 357 Magnum revolver. He noted odd and intermittent pressure spikes when his loads were fired in -35* weather. The fuel was originally developed for use in shotguns--a very different internal ballistic environment than a magnum revolver cartridge. Yet another case of MAKE HASTE SLOWLY.
    Most of the people who used Blue Dot for loading shotshells also noted that it had a tendency to be sensitive to Cold weather and you lost performance as the weather turned in that direction.. I think that this was one reason they developed Alliant Steel to be temperature insensitive..

  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy

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    IMHO,

    This is another reason for getting Quickload to add to your reloading room,
    as you can find/check powders/load data that there is no or little info for,
    new powders that have just come out etc.

    Yes, the program costs some funds, but that makes it worth what you paid for it,
    as you can run "before tests" to see what the results will do.

    There is lots of info to be gained, ONCE you know and understand QL.

    Here is a some info on Quickload,
    http://www.6mmbr.com/quickload.html

    Tia,
    Don

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by nvreloader View Post
    IMHO,

    This is another reason for getting Quickload to add to your reloading room,
    as you can find/check powders/load data that there is no or little info for,
    new powders that have just come out etc.

    Yes, the program costs some funds, but that makes it worth what you paid for it,
    as you can run "before tests" to see what the results will do.

    There is lots of info to be gained, ONCE you know and understand QL.

    Here is a some info on Quickload,
    http://www.6mmbr.com/quickload.html

    Tia,
    Don
    Slight problem w/ that. New powders aren't added right away. There is a long list of powders I have that aren't listed in Quickload. And it's not like they are all new ones. SR4759 is not listed and that powder was around for a long time before being recently discontinued.

    I agree that Quickload is a tool that people should use. It's also a computer program so it's garbage in, garbage out. It has limitations like anything else. I would be a lot happier if they added powders fairly quickly after being released. As it is now it takes far to long.

  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy

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    Dragon813gt,

    Every 12-18 momths, QL puts out an updated disc with the new powders/cases that HB has tested,
    as he helped me with unique my wildcat as I was in uncharted waters.

    You will not find SHOTGUN type powders listed in QL, as these are normally tested to 15,00 psi for shotshells only,
    when loaded for use in cartridges, like Blue Dot, they produce erratic psi and other problems,
    there are a few that are listed, like Unique, 2400 etc that are cross over powders, that work in both areas.

    QL had the newest RL powders listed before the Alliant site has info,
    like RL 23/RL 26 and Norma 217 powders etc.

    Yes, I would like to see SR 4759 listed as it is a very fine powder for reduced loading,
    but Trail Boss seems to fill that notch OK for now.

    YMMV,

    Tia,
    Don

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Like I said, I have a long list of powders not listed. Their updates don't include powders that have been out for a long time and new ones. Shotgun powders are used for pistol loads all the time and pressure tested data is listed for them in a lot of manuals. Their omission limits the use of the program.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master wrench man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiver58 View Post
    Hodgdon has no trouble doing it ..
    Quote Originally Posted by dragon813gt View Post
    Yes they do.

    I called Hodgdon about Leverevolution in the 356 Winchester, consider it a TOTAL waste of ten minutes of my life!, the only thing I can say is that they actually answered the phone and I talked to a human being.
    ASE master certified engine machinist
    Brake & Alignment specialist, ricer to class 8

  8. #48
    Boolit Bub
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    Guys........Let's get real here

    Some serious liability at stake. The manufacturers won't stick their necks out.

    You're experienced reloaders, and know what to look for when developing a load.

    Find the "basement" load, and work up.

    Primers are your friend.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	170006Look at a low pressure load, and judge how much primer flow you're getting from hotter loads.
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ID:	170008Compare it to an unfired primer, and see if you're starting to get nervous.

    The best alternative is to look at a load for a heavier bullet. The loads are less for heavier stuff. Start here, and work up. If you're getting close to a published load for something close to your bullet weight...........stop. It isn't about bragging rights, it's about keeping your investment in one piece.

    The Chrono......buy one, use it. It's the only cheap way for most handloaders to have some idea of just what's coming out of the barrel.

    Revolvers are tricky, hard to tell when to stop. Just get close to some published load, and quit.

    Semi auto pistols are a bit easier. Just start low, and keep increasing until the action cycles properly. Then quit.

    All loads can compare to factory loads if you wish, as long as you use a Chrono to verify the velocity for the caliber/bullet weight. This can change though, if you're using a high energy powder. The energy pulse can be devastating if it's too fast for the gun. Stay with listed powders in your caliber/gun

    Anyways You wouldn't be into this if you weren't a lead head, or a semi moron I qualify on both counts

    Bottom line, be careful and conservative, and have a good time.

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I must admit I understand the OP's frustration. The .41 Mag is a classic cartridge with a loyal following. Not exactly my cup of tea but the powder in question does seem well suited to the cartridge. I hope they track the inquiries and use the data to help decide which cartridge to test next.
    Face it, as a group we're not exactly a broad segment of the market and we like to get off the beaten path but we're a loyal group and we like to shoot, sometime we like to shoot a lot. That ought to count for something.
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  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiver58 View Post
    I supplied Alliant the bullet, bullet type , case , primer, revolver, barrel length and the caliber (41 magnum)
    And this was their reply .. So much for ask the expert ..

    Load data is based on the bullet and its design, not the powder alone.
    We suggest that you contact the manufacturer for data on their bullet.


    Thanks,

    Shoot Straight
    DuaneVB
    CCI/Speer/Alliant
    2299 Snake River Ave.
    Lewiston, ID
    They don’t make bullets that they give data for say, 2400 or Unique yet they give load data for those powders…. So, why can’t they give data for MP 300? I have a pound of it that I would like to check out in a .41 mag too. So, what’s the big deal?

  11. #51
    Boolit Master Castaway's Avatar
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    I called Alliant about loading the 45 cal, RCBS 270 grain bullet with Unique. They referred me to RCBS. Called RCBS, they referred me to Alliant. Called Alliant, and explained the run around. They then gave me a load limit, which when compared to Brian Pierce’s article on the bullet, was a full grain less

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon813gt View Post
    It's not a pressure standard issue. What's happened is they now use piezoelectric transducers to measure pressure. This gives them a real time pressure curve. So if anything is dangerous in the curve they don't publish the load anymore. It's not simply a matter of peak pressure.

    Blue Dot has always been a wonky powder. Creates a big flash and lots of noise. But it can go wrong quickly w/ it. I have little experience w/ it but it's like H110/W296 where it has a fairly small operational window.
    Larry Gibson, i think it was, explained this at length some time ago. Blue Dot was fine in 41Mag then it wasnt with better measuring equipment and reports of detonations either real or imagined. I nwver had a problem using it in either of my Blackhawks.
    Quite a number of powder/bullet combos have been reduced.
    Last edited by jonp; 09-07-2021 at 08:26 AM.
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  13. #53
    Boolit Master dbosman's Avatar
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    They didn't grow up building stuff because they had to, and didn't grow up reading the multitude of materials people over fifty five had available.
    Most never had a chemistry class with a teacher who was willing to work outside the school board approved book.

    In high school, when some of us got caught making fireworks, the punishment agreed to by parents, principal, and teacher, was we had to write up our plans and do the compounding by working out the exact chemistry of our planned mixtures. To be verified by the chemistry teacher. When testing, the principle and chemistry teacher came out to supervise. Weighing chemicals on lab scales made for better bangs. They knew we weren't going to stop. So we had be learn to make them correctly and safely. That chemistry teacher had his PhD in chemistry and had working in industry before deciding to become a teacher. One of his earlier students went on to work for one of the powder companies and a previous middle school class he taught had made 10 ft tall rockets which were fired on school grounds, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    Why is everyone so freaking scared to do some load development? Start low and move on up with caution.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    Of all of the powders I have considered for magnum use, 300 MP was about the most notable for lack of load data.

    The burn rate is good for several of my guns and price / availability were attractive.

    This was years ago and the load data situation does not seem to have gotten any better. I do not mind some amount of focus on popular rounds first, but then stopping before getting at least one or two loads for well known rounds is poor support for the reloading community as a whole.

    I also find Alliant's current on-line load data info to be among the least satisfying. They do not give pressure values and they have removed so many loads (even where they did have good modern data with pressure values in psi).

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    I, like most of us here I suppose, depend on advice from mostly the "sages" on this board to steer me in the right direction. If that means going to a manual or article and following safe loading practices, then that's pretty much what I do. I guess calling Alliant might be a good idea. I already have some good loads using other powders so, for now I'll stick with what I know works.

    Thanks, by the way, all of you shooters who have helped me out in the past. I really appreciate it!

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    A few thoughts,

    300-MP is a good substitute for SR4759.

    Unique is a rifle powder. Always has been. Always will be. Some say it works in pistols and shotguns too.

    Do you think gun writers get more “help” than the general public?
    USMC 6638

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    Manufacturers might reduce their load data but I don't think that would change the SAAMI spec.
    True, but technology has shown their loads to be unsafe. The ORIGINAL .357 Magnum loads are no longer published. The powders aren't different. The technology to realize they were never safe has since been developed.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by downzero View Post
    True, but technology has shown their loads to be unsafe. The ORIGINAL .357 Magnum loads are no longer published. The powders aren't different. The technology to realize they were never safe has since been developed.
    Does this mean that there have been lots of kabooms that I have never heard about?

    I do wonder about this stuff... I mean, does this imply that the 38-44 hardware used to develop the loads in the first place wasn't up to the task? Or perhaps that the engineers underestimated the action strength required for safely controlling the original loads? Or that they used inaccurate data when determining that required strength? The definition of the word "safe" is probably a bit fuzzy here.

    Doesn't matter a hill of beans to me, the only hot 357 loads I shoot are in guns rated for far more pressure than the average 357 gun is...

    FWIW, the reality is that the load manuals are only giving suggestions and they don't necessarily deserve the sacred treatment they receive. Conservative approaches are necessary regardless of whether the book says things are OK. I have loaded some minimum loads which shot fine in one gun and showed pressure signs in another. You better believe I learned that lesson in a hurry. Correlate to that is the fact that some guns are stronger, shoot with less pressure, or whatever, given the same components, and the book values will leave safe loads outside your options.

    Besides, what are you supposed to do to shoot basically any custom boolit mold or heavy or light for cartridge boolits in general? You have to extrapolate and use tools like QuickLOAD, then do careful testing.
    Last edited by Daekar; 09-08-2021 at 06:13 AM.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    ive used I dont know how many pounds of Alliant powders over the years and probably have dozens of pounds in the bunker but they sure are not too responsive to providing off book load data or even entertaining prospect of working up new loads. in contrast is western powders technicians that have in the past been very responsive to providing info when asked. all powders go kaboom but having safe load data is paramount. my view and opinion of Alliant went way down hill after asking them for safe 41 mag data with their then new 300mp with the all common 210 gr bullet. I bought into the new 300 mp big time after trying it in 357 and 44. back when things were normal in the stores and you could get whatever you want at fair price, I started getting on bandwagon of new powders I guess about when I became more aware of hodgdon with temp stable replacements for 4895, 4350, 4831. so when new powders showed up I was all about trying them.
    be86- great powder with lots and lots of load data from alliant, 300mp another very promising powder for what it was designed for--load data seriously lacking from alliant. sport pistol--why even try it when they can't even give me load data for 300mp. in the future I will be less likely to try new powders from Alliant while hodgdon/imr/winchester and now western powders all under the same umbrella corporation keeps putting out new products and new load data all the time.

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daekar View Post
    Does this mean that there have been lots of kabooms that I have never heard about?

    Besides, what are you supposed to do to shoot basically any custom boolit mold or heavy or light for cartridge boolits in general? You have to extrapolate and use tools like QuickLOAD, then do careful testing.
    I'm not sure if you were under the impression that all unsafe/overpressure loads would cause a kaboom, but they won't and don't. Every gun has a substantial safety margin built into it; obviously a magnum cartridge would have to have a substantial safety margin to hold up to years of full pressure magnum loads.

    What it means is that there were long-published loads that were believed to be within the engineered pressure limits that turned out not to be with newer measuring equipment. Which negates the oft-given answer that it was in response to litigation or the threat of litigation.

    I also think it makes more sense. I'm not aware of any tort case ever filed anywhere that was against a powder company for a published load. I'm not saying there aren't any, but everyone knows that handloading is potentially dangerous and I'm not aware of any cases anyway.

    I do my own load development just like you. I try my best to rely on published information as much as possible and keep my "extrapolation" as little as possible, comparing sources. I can also say that I've destroyed some brass in the process; for some wildcats what seems like it'd be okay isn't always okay. In rifles, blowing them up usually isn't the concern, but stretching the brass to the point of it being unusable isn't uncommon for me at all.

    Quickload is a great resource as well. Not perfect, but probably better than inference from published data, especially if your cartridge is quite a ways outside the box, so to speak.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check