Alliant Powder .. Worst answer ever from a powder company

[trapper9260]

What I do for a bullet make that I do not have the data for . What I do is just use the data of about the same weight and start low and work the load that the gun tells me. Like is stated the data is just a guide.Also Alliant is part of the ATK group and so is Spree and CCI and LC. there is some others but do not know off hand.That is why that if you look how the reply put down of the 3 company.

[kdiver58]

Even when I added the request for any data on their powder and their bullets this was the reply.. " Alliant has no tested load data for the 41 Rem Mag for while using the Power Pro 300-MP." I've been reloading since the 70's . I just find it odd that a powder company selling Magnum pistol powder has no data on it. I can go to Hogdon's web site and find loads of info. on their products. I wanted to try this powder and see if the gun liked it better. I still stand by my original post. I find their reply less than what I think they should supply given the information their competitors give. I have loads I am going to go shoot tomorrow. Developed using the SWAG method . I'd just like to have a little less G in the SWAG ..

[dtknowles]

Even when I added the request for any data on their powder and their bullets this was the reply.. " Alliant has no tested load data for the 41 Rem Mag for while using the Power Pro 300-MP." I've been reloading since the 70's . I just find it odd that a powder company selling Magnum pistol powder has no data on it. I can go to Hogdon's web site and find loads of info. on their products. I wanted to try this powder and see if the gun liked it better. I still stand by my original post. I find their reply less than what I think they should supply given the information their competitors give. I have loads I am going to go shoot tomorrow. Developed using the SWAG method . I'd just like to have a little less G in the SWAG ..

It seems that they could have provide more explanation than just the bullet deal. Like why they have not tested data for that powder in 41 mag. and if they expected to do 41 mag. tests eventually. I don't recognize the powder and I just checked the burn rate table from the 2016 Hodgdon annual. 300 MP or Pro Power are not listed Alliant Pro Reach is listed but no other Alliant Pro powders. I think they could have communicated better with you. If you are on the leading edge sometimes you have to blaze your own trail. It seems you might be "wearing out clothes nobody wears"

Tim

[Rodvan]

Judas Priest you guys, give him a break! He did exactly what many on this forum have said to do "contact the manufacturer." I got the same response from Alliant when I asked about load data for a 40 S&W with lead bullets. Weeks later I find another forum that had a email response from Alliant listing load data for several calibers including 40 S&W. Sometimes I think people respond to posts just to increase their post count...

[koehlerrk]

Alright boys, settle down... I'm gonna explain this to ya once...

Alliant is a company that makes and sells gunpowder.
They do this to make money.
They make money by selling their product at a price that is competitive with other companies offerings yet still priced above their cost of production.
Part of the production cost is evaluating this new powder and developing load data for it.

They can't test every powder in every cartridge.
Each cartridge and bullet combination requires many rounds be loaded and fired. Hundreds, perhaps thousands. For each cartridge. For each bullet. With exacting records.

This is neither a quick or cheap process.

So, to keep the final sales price low enough that consumers will buy their product, they have to pick and choose what rounds they do testing on. From the burn rate they have a list of cartridges it will likely work well in.

But that's not the test list. They are under pressure to cut cost where they can. So they compare the cost of testing to the profits they would expect for each round. Many rounds don't make the cut because there isn't enough demand. Put another way, they're not going to spend $100K in testing the 41 magnum if their research says they'll only make $50K selling that powder to 41 magnum reloaders.

The 41 magnum is a great round, but how many 41s are there vs 357s, 44s, etc?

That's why you won't get data from them. They don't have it, and can't justify the expense of developing it. So, you can whine, or you can develop your own data. Just be careful if you do that.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[JSnover]

I started loading in the pre-internet era and none of my friends were into it. Midway sold 'complete reloading manuals' from Loadbooks USA Inc (I see they have one for the .41 magnum) so I bought a couple, plus a few manuals from Sierra, Hornady, etc.
The first thing I learned was nobody has all of the data. Sometimes you have to ballpark it with your best guess, back it off a little and work your way back up to where you want to be. For me that was half the fun.

[jaydub in wi]

To the original poster, I also have a 41 magnum and considered using 300 mp. Alliant does not have data listed, but there is some for the 41 on loaddata.com. I don't know if you have a yearly subscription, but I do and could email data. These were loads listed in handloader magazine. Hope this helps..

[HangFireW8]

Or was it that in today's litigious society they lowered the pressure standards for 41 magnum? It did not just happen with the 41. Some Green Dot 12 ga loads disappeared along with a few others. Some of the Blue Dot loads I used to shoot for 10mm are no longer in the books either.

For the Bluedot/41 Magnum connection, I remember a crusading forum type (may not have been THIS forum) who hounded them until they retested, and low and behold, there really was pressure problems, just as he had said.

Their initial retraction was disappointing. Instead of publishing new data, they said not to use BD for ANY weight bullet in the 41 Magnum. We all know enough to know that's silly, but apparently they felt it necessary to do that in order to put the episode behind them.

Apparently they're sticking with that: http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting...y_notices.aspx

I don't agree with that, but I also don't agree with the OP about "worst answer". They simply won't speculate on untested combinations, and I wouldn't expect them to, either.

[kdiver58]

Alright boys, settle down... I'm gonna explain this to ya once...

Alliant is a company that makes and sells gunpowder.
They do this to make money.
They make money by selling their product at a price that is competitive with other companies offerings yet still priced above their cost of production.
Part of the production cost is evaluating this new powder and developing load data for it.

They can't test every powder in every cartridge.
Each cartridge and bullet combination requires many rounds be loaded and fired. Hundreds, perhaps thousands. For each cartridge. For each bullet. With exacting records.

This is neither a quick or cheap process.

So, to keep the final sales price low enough that consumers will buy their product, they have to pick and choose what rounds they do testing on. From the burn rate they have a list of cartridges it will likely work well in.

But that's not the test list. They are under pressure to cut cost where they can. So they compare the cost of testing to the profits they would expect for each round. Many rounds don't make the cut because there isn't enough demand. Put another way, they're not going to spend $100K in testing the 41 magnum if their research says they'll only make $50K selling that powder to 41 magnum reloaders.

The 41 magnum is a great round, but how many 41s are there vs 357s, 44s, etc?

That's why you won't get data from them. They don't have it, and can't justify the expense of developing it. So, you can whine, or you can develop your own data. Just be careful if you do that.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Hodgdon has no trouble doing it ..

[dragon813gt]

Hodgdon has no trouble doing it ..

Yes they do. I had to develop almost all the loads for my 327 Federals. They may publish data now but they didn't when it was first introduced. And even now they don't publish loads for the various cast bullet weights I shoot. This is just one example.

New powder + Obscure/Obsolete/Niche Cartridge = Back of the line for published load development

I have never seen a 41mag for sale at any LGS in my life. Granted I am only in my thirties. But I completely understand why they develop loads for 9mm/45acp/357......and then eventually the niche cartridges.

There was nothing wrong w/ Alliants response. They aren't going to give out load data if they haven't pressure tested it.

[pkie44]

Study the data available and you will see that you can use midrange 296-H110 data as a starting point.
Some data here.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/3...4_Oct_2011.pdf

[BAGTIC]

Apparently they didn't say they didn't have any data for Power Pro 300-MP. They said they did have any 41 Magnum data. It is expensive working up reliable data for any cartridge. The .41 Magnum is not one of the more common cartridges. They may have concluded there would not be enough interest in that caliber for that powder to justify the expense of developing data.
They are a business not a charity. It may be difficult for some to accept in this 'Age of Entitlement' but neither they or anyone else owes any of us any data. Take what you can find from any source and consider yourself lucky.

[rhouser]

When I was working up Enforcer powder loads for the 327 mag with a 115 GC hard cast, the Ram Shot team was very supportive and would discuss pressure curves, characteristics etc with me. They asked that I give them my numbers where I ended up. All on phone and on line.

When I was working up loads for the 357 in a Coonan, I again had the support of the Ram Shot team who supplied me with unpublished data.

When I wanted to work with Alliant to build some 12 gauge lite slugs based around their Extra Lite powder, I was told that all they had were their published 12 Ga loads and no one should use their powder for anything else. Note: I now have a load for the 7/8 lee slug in 12 gauge with extra lite that is absolutely perfect for what I wanted.

I sent the Alliant team a return email that basically expressed my disappointment with their current position on working with the customers, but, that I understood that they were now a cookie cutter operation.

I wonder who discovered that Unique could be more than a shotgun powder? Has any one noticed that Red Dot is no longer a shotgun powder for 12 gauge?

I am 66 years old and I am still using blue dot for light 308 loads and shot 20/28 in my Casull when I couldn't find Unique. I still have my fingers and toes and hope to still have them when they put me in the ground. I understand the OP's frustration.

rch

[dubber123]

Interesting thread. I understand wanting to do things "Right" and contacting the manufacturers. I do a fair bit of looking first, but if I don't find what I need, I look at my burn chart and pick what I feel is a safe starting load and work up. I may be lucky, (doubt that), but I have never had a spooky moment doing it this way. If it's a powder that is on the fast side, I go extra slow, yes some do climb in pressure pretty fast. I have never had a "mild to wild" moment, they all have a curve, just work up, take notes and watch for it.

[9.3X62AL]

What Dubber said. When you load for calibers like 30 Luger and 7.65 MAS pistol, data is very scarce. You are on your own. Make haste slowly.

Handloading can be "recipe book cooking" if you so choose. Some folks' tastes get jaded, though--so we leave the reservation now and then and go on walkabout to explore new areas and see new things.

[jmort]

"Has any one noticed that Red Dot is no longer a shotgun powder for 12 gauge?"

In what world?????

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...rid=4&gauge=12

[9.3X62AL]

"Has any one noticed that Red Dot is no longer a shotgun powder for 12 gauge?"

In what world?????

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...rid=4&gauge=12

Yessir. I went through a WHOLE LOT of Red Dot in 12 gauge for many years of trap/skeet and bird hunting.....AA hulls, AA White wad column, 209 primers, 18.0 grains of RD, 1-1/8 oz of 7-1/2s or 9s. I guess the Clays Cats have cut back the shot weights to 20 gauge levels (7/8 oz) these days, but I went in the other direction 20+ years ago--I use 1-1/4 oz, still in 7.5 or 9, and have some #5 for late-season chukars. Herco handles this tasking quite well.

[leadman]

I spoke with Ben at Alliant some time back about the 300MP in the 41 mag. He said they had not done any testing for the 41 mag. and recommended I read Brian pearce's article on the 41 and 300MP. I had already read it so used Brian's loads which proved to be good and safe in my guns. I went a couple of grains higher than Brian in my Ruger SBH Hunter and got some outstanding velocity and accuracy. I was using the RCBS 215gr SWC plain base.
Previously I had spoke with Ben about Blue Dot and cast bullets in my 41 mag for mid-range loads. I did load BD and boolits in my 41 and spoke with Ben again with the velocity and case expansion results. He agreed my load seemed to be safe from the info I gave him. He did state that the higher end loads were more prone to having pressure issues. Alliant has not and probably will not do any new testing of the 41 mag. Testing costs money and we all know how broke all the powder companies are, Right! LOL.
If the OP wants to PM me I will provide him with the info I have on 300MP in the 41 mag.

[Tar Heel]

Referencing BD...Be careful with this propellant in the 41 Mag. It is prone to pressure excursions. There are much better propellants to use like WW296 or H110 or AA9.

[9.3X62AL]

Blue Dot has been noted for occasional "squirrelliness" since it came onstream in the mid-1970s. I recall an article published by Bob Milek soon after the powder's introduction regarding its usage in the 357 Magnum revolver. He noted odd and intermittent pressure spikes when his loads were fired in -35* weather. The fuel was originally developed for use in shotguns--a very different internal ballistic environment than a magnum revolver cartridge. Yet another case of MAKE HASTE SLOWLY.