What a poignant synopsis of the whole matter, Hickock! And we're ALL in that same boat with you, and will be, until as you said, Christ regenerates us into another, less flawed form. Thanks for a great post of tremendous insight. These things matter, especially in a day and time when it's become "fashionable" to try to set ourselves out to be better, stronger, richer and more knowledgable and understanding than we really are, or even COULD be.Originally Posted by Hickok
Wow, Paul! You put your finger on what I've come to believe has become the greatest assault on the church, and possibly one of its greatest flawed responses - the entry of politics of secular progressive beliefs and thoughts intruding into what SHOULD be the worship of God. Yeah, God loves ALL sinners, even you and I, but taking obvious and blatant and unrepentant sinners into the fold as members just cannot be quite "right," IMO. It seems there as SO many things entering into faith these days, that tend to separate us one from another in all manner of ways, that the church well may be under a more insidious assault than when people were trying to kill us! They're attacking what we believe, and our traditional and reasonable practices for 2,000 years now! And THAT may be more dangerous than anything we've yet faced, again IMO.
Knowing sinners are loved is one thing. Taking them, and their obvious and unrepentant behavior into the churches as members is something I cannot rest easy about. Are WE excluding THEM, or are THEY simply unwilling or unable to conform to our real beliefs? This is the question I never hear whenever the issue is discussed, especially on TV, radio or wherever. Have we lost our ability to think critically, and separate the wheat from the chaff?
The SP's are always confusing the issue when, in their "questions," they include some assumptions at the outset that cannot, within the realm of true belief in the Bible, be accepted. As Einstein said, the key to finding the right answers lies in finding the right questions to ask in the first place. Once we do that, the answers seem obvious and self-evident, usually. They confuse the issues at the outset by asking assumptive questions that are not just wrong to start with, but are wrong-headed in nature. And we, unfortunately, usually take the bait, and make a mess of trying to deal with it, because there's really no answer to the questions as asked. They simply ask all the wrong questions, with all the wrong assumptions contained in them to start with.
It's as if they wanted to go north, but set out on a southward route to get there! And we Christians, secure in our own beliefs, and having resolved the answers we really need, find their idjit questions perplexing, because they assume all the wrong things to start with. It's one of their favorite techniques, it seems.
There's a great deal of confusion generated when using words, in this case 'church'. In any discussion, it's what is meant by the words you use and their context that's important. Too often through ignorance and/or deceit, words are used inappropriately. Then there's the filters we all have when we read/hear the words. That's why it's important to make sure each one is using the 'same definition on the same page of the same dictionary' when communicating. For the word 'church', do you mean a local congregation, a denomination, the universal Body of Christ, or ____?
BTW, I consider myself a recovering Baptist. Thankful for some of what I learned there, not for all. Theology is VITAL and important, but as I've gone on in my faith journey, I've come to believe that we're saved not because of our theology, but in spite of it.
I'm reminded of the anecdote of John Newton (author of the hymn, Amazing Grace) who allegedly said, "Should I make entrance into the Heavenly gates, I expect I will experience three great amazements. One would be that there will be people there that I never expected to see. Secondly, there will be people who I expected to see that are absent. But the greatest amazement of all by far is that I'm there."
Saved only by God's mercy, grace, the blood of Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by hubcap52; 05-30-2016 at 02:29 PM.
So this question should not have been asked? Or should this part of the forum be banned from the Cast Boolit Forum?
Amen, I'm still Praying for our/this forum; The Whole Forum.
Terry
You're far from alone, brother! FAR from alone! And it's ironic that in our earlier years, when we're fighting the fight to carve out our little place in the world, and learning how to simply make things work in our little area of it, we have so little time for real pursuit of wisdom and theology. Only when we're older, and not so busy, do we really have the proper time to devote to the more critical things in life. Is that one of the larger reasons for faith? Maybe so. But faith is hard. Maybe, again, that's why the young have to depend on it so much?
Truly, God who made us and all that is, knew what He was doing, and gave us VERY good advice to guide us on our pathways in life! We may not understand it all, but mostly, it's because we ask the wrong questions. It's in the quieter, stiller moments of our late lives that we have the experience and time to decipher the big questions we've always had for years. Thanks to God, who lets most of us reach that point!
So why is any of this your business?
Who are you addressing that to?
Raised in the Episcopal Church...baptized and confirmed...acolyte in my early teens....raised by good God fearing parents that were survivors of the dust bowl and the depression and went on the become very successful and well regarded...With all the background I had I became a hopeless alcoholic in my late teens and did not get sober until my early 40's...I found a God of my understanding in a group I still maintain frequent contact with after these 35 years...The group is often called a cult or a "religious" sect but while it is based on having a God in a person's life it does not use God as a "weapon" to criticize other's..
Live and let live. There is a simple saying...Church is for people that fear going to hell and AA is for people that have been there.
I think "my God" welcomes all and does allow U turns.
I am a sinner always been a sinner always will be a sinner but i am counting on the grace and forgiveness of JC as i like to call him to so i live everyday trying to be a better Christian but fall short every day. I have the problem is turning the other cheek
Reloading to save money I am sure the saving is going to start soon
Amen Mr. Opos
Opos, you bring up AA. I have had several friends who were alcoholics, but didn't drink any more. And I've even sat in on a couple of meetings thanks to the good graces of some friends there who vouched for me. And I have to say, I was VERY impressed with the absolute, brutal honesty I found there. Yeah, there were a few who tried to pass off excuses and rationalizations, but the others in the group didn't let them. I felt kind'a out of place, and a little embarassed that I couldn't contribute anything. I guess I felt like a voyeur? But it was a very touching and illuminating experience. Groups in AA vary quite a bit, as would be expected of any organization of humans would, but there, they spoke of God as most folks talk about the weather - it was just a given - something they all knew and woulnd't even attempt to deny or minimize or "reason away."
I wouldn't call them a "church" exactly, but they sure do DO the work of a very good church! And they've helped more people than any amount of drugs ever will! The drugs, like Antabuse, can help, but only temporarily to give them the simple chance to learn how to control their drinking without it. I've seen AA, get some guys sober that I would NEVER have suspected would have done so! These were "ticking time bombs" that I was absolutely sure didn't have the mental capacity even, any more, to get straight. But I was WRONG, and they DID! One of those guys in AA was a gunsmith friend of mine who was supposed to have been dead well over 20 years ago. He was one of the willdest alcoholics you'll ever find anywhere. Seriously! But he's still a friend, and God's not finished with him yet. I go see him in SC periodically, just to spend a little time with him and talk and see what he's working on. He's an absolute savant with classic rifle stocks! I finally got one of his, and it's a real beauty. And he's resisted tooth and nail the "whole ball of wax" of Christianity and the church, etc., but he's slowly been coming around for years. When his Dad died not long ago, as fine a man and Christian and bulwark of his church as he was, my friend seems finally to have come to humble himself enough to accept it all. It's taken an awful long time, but it's been worth it. If I told you what all he's been through, you wouldn't believe me.
So AA, for me at least, gets a pass, since I know what it's about. It surely depends on the group one is in, and they vary, but the good ones use Bible verses like you'll never see in a more regular church. And I've never seen as much pure, unadulterated honesty and frankness as I have in an AA meeting. This was a pretty tough group, though, one that most seemed to regard as a bunch of essentially un-PC renegades, who were as tough on each other at times as they'd been on themselves earlier in life.
Not many realize what all goes on in AA meetings, or how much they vary. Good ones really and truly have my great respect. I've seen them do wonders that nothing else has, or likely ever could, achieve. Not all the time, but not everyone CAN be saved from themselves. For those that can, their best bet by far is AA, NA, etc.
Funny isn't it? How the more serious the affliction, the more faith is the ultimate, and maybe only answer?
Had a very close friend that was the priest at the Episcopal parish in Denver where my Dad and Mom attended for years...his Wife was active in AA...he used to comment that the AA meetings on Wednesday night at their parish house had full attendance most nights and the Church attendance was only about a third of that on Sunday...he always wondered why....
I've never been to a bad meeting...I've been to meetings where I might not have been willing to listen to what was said but I've never seen a bad meeting. Over the years I've been to churches for various reasons....baptisms, deaths, weddings, etc and my guess is that some would have similar feelings about church services...really no "good or bad" ones...just how they might affect the individual at any given time.
I'll mention one thing just in case there is someone "confused" about a non alcoholic attending an AA meeting...there are many different "kinds" of meetings...an "open meeting" is open to the public and often the members discuss things in a very general way and discuss the program and it's workings...then there are "speaker meetings" where a member might take 45 minutes of the hour meeting to "tell his or her story"..again it's open to the public and the speaker keeps his or her comments to a general nature. The "closed" meetings are not open to the public per se...they are for folks that are alcoholic and if a person is new the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking...a non alcoholic would probably be very uncomfortable in a closed AA meeting...that is where the discussions become more involved and "the work get's done". We normally ask that a non alcoholic not share at any of the meetings as anything they might have to say would be opinion rather than "experience, strength and hope"....any AA member would gladly chat with a person after the meeting or later on if they have comments or questions....Nothing secret about any of it...it's just that life saving is going on in many cases and the newcomer (or old timer if they have issues) need to feel comfortable being in a place that is safe to discuss things related to alcohol. I'm sure that attending a meeting without the background of being an alcoholic would be a bit like being a voyeur but probably more than anything...kind of uninteresting.
AA does not get anyone sober..AA is available to help the recovering alcoholic find a way to live an enjoyable and productive life after and without alcohol...the individual, should they decide to use AA as the vehicle to get sober, will have some suggested things to do...their choice as to if and when and how they might do them....anyone can stop drinking..most of us did it hundreds of times but for lasting sobriety and comfortable sobriety many of us had to find a replacement for the crutch of alcohol.
A God of our understanding is essential but there is no set "God description"...most of us have grown up with a religion and found we needed something different..many will return to the religion of their youth..many will find a new religion and some like me will get the spiritual direction we need from the program and fellowship itself...but "God" seems to be at the center of good recovery.
My kids (all grown) and my Grandkids have all been to meetings with me and none of them drink much if at all....they have gone to help celebrate anniversaries in sobriety or if I'm scheduled to speak...mostly they found it interesting but not something that was "earth shattering"..Our life is pretty simple...my Wife is 41 years sober and we mostly have friends that are "program"...just because that's who we see the most.
Last edited by opos; 05-30-2016 at 11:56 PM.
Thank you for your post .
AA was brought up and while a little off course I'd like to say a lot of good people have been saved by this program. It takes a good person to admit they have a problem and then to deal with it. Maybe this shows a little faith.
Yeah, I'm aware of the deistic nature of the "higher power" in AA, but even so, most find our conventional Christian God, and most around here also find Christ as well. It's not required in AA, since it's a very purpose driven organization, but any time people are really and earnestly seeking Truth, I think they'll usually find Christ in the process. Even if they don't set out to do that. So in a way, belief in Christ is kind'a a by-product of its essential tenets and processes. After all, real "spiritual growth" has to land somewhere, and as one matures in spirit, that spirit HAS to find a real home, and .... where else would it naturally go? It may take many a long time and a lot of years to get there, but with the brutal honesty involved, I think it's inevitable that most would find Christ. I know some have a problem with "organized" churches, but I suspect that's mostly because they are so focused on staying sober, usually, at least. All these comments are "glittering generalities," which makes them not quite true, of course. AA is composed of anyone and everyone, like you say, who simply wants to get sober, and some may, for any number of reasons, have a built in negative attitude toward churches, and often not without significant reasons, but churches aren't Christianity, and belief in Christ is what Christ was given us for, while the churches are creations of man. Being created and maintained by men, the churches are fallible, and most or at least many in AA are so focused on staying sober, that this pretty much HAS to be their main focus. But I've known some older and more "experienced" AA members who, after nearly a lifetime of AA, finally came fully to Christ and joined a church, and they were very much rocks within that church. After all, they're used to the concept of flawed individuals, "falling off the wagon," etc., so they're very well prepared to deal with "backsliding" and hypocrisy and people just not quite living up to their goals. If St. Paul called himself "chief among sinners," then it's no wonder that we who haven't yet walked and talked with our Lord might fail and fall short on occasion.
And I'll say one other thing: Long time members of AA surely have the greatest patience of any group I've ever seen! Not hard to see why. And their somewhat fatalistic acceptance of whatever happens is wisdom in motion, I think. I learned a good deal from them, even though I'm not an alcoholic. People in crisis can't help but be instructive if we just pay attention. It's ultimately, just a microcosm of the whole world around them, with a specific focus and mission, and a set of general processes that all would do well to follow.
Y'all do some really outstanding work, and some of the things I've seen arise from AA are just flat unbelievable. And it's funny who responds to them, and who doesn't. One guy I remember comes from a good family, but seemed to everyone to be headed for death on a highway and likely to take someone with them in the process. But he got sober, despite everyone's reconciliation that there was "nothing we can do." And STAYED that way! In human terms, if in no other way, they really work some significant "miracles."
Y'all do some great work, sir! You ought to be proud of what you and so many others are contributing to. It makes SO much difference to any who'll simply submit themselves to the effort, and follow the guidelines set. Not all will progress to conventional Christian belief, but I think most would never find ANY sort of belief without it, and even belief in SOMETHING is a big advancement for many members. Again, it's hard to generalize about such a diverse organization, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say. Y'all do great work, and have my respect, greatly. No, it's not a church, but it's a real pathway that's likely to lead one to Christ, and sometimes, some folks have to get to a place where they CAN get to belief. Not all make it, just like all professing Christians many not make it to Heaven, but it surely leads a lot of folks toward that end in at least a general sense. Like I said, I think any real and honest examination of the simple truths of this world will, eventually, lead one to Christ, God and the whole ball of wax, IF they'll but simple separate the "church" from the reality of Christ.
For many, it's fearful to get involved with an organization that so commonly falls short of living what they believe, and I think anyone should understand that. And it's not a real substitute for a real, good church. But it's surely a great pathway toward real belief. And that's an advancement for most that can't be truly appreciated by most of us non-alcoholics. So what else is new on earth, right?
Just a final note as I didn't want to "steer" the thread but did feel the "non Christian" spiritual folks needed a voice.
While Christ is a part of many folks in AA's spiritual or religious leaning there are many that do not share the belief in Christ or have other "religious" leanings that do not include Christ. I think the important thing is that AA is inclusionary and not exclusionary. I use the word God in discussing a spiritual way of life as it's not often "challenged" and most folks accept that I do have something that works. I have been acquainted and worked with a number of folks over the years that have strong religious convictions and do not have Jesus as part of those convictions. It would be tragic were they to be somehow turned away from sobriety because they have their own belief system that works....just not the same way a some feel it should.
I often hear that "we are human beings on a spiritual path"...being a guy that likes to create dialog I prefer to think "I'm a Spiritual being on a human path"..whatever the situation we all have our own lives to live and an obligation to be available for help for our fellow man/woman. Lots of folks feel the "anonymous" part of AA is because we are afraid to be found out...far from the truth...the anonymous portion directs us to place principles before personalities...I've been in meetings where bank presidents, movie actors, bikers, dishwashers, and all "sort" of folks are in attendance. The real tragedy would be if I pick and choose who's experiences I "listen to" were based on the person's status or standing in the community. Some of the most productive meetings for me have been in places where I would not have been drinking in my lowest days with people that I'd have not chosen to drink with..
My hope is that anyone with "a past" be it alcohol, sins as spelled out in the Bible or other literature, etc can find a way to allow changes to take place in their life that will be for the better for them and for those around them..The one thing about AA is that we do not recruit (or lead)..alcoholism is an affliction that even hypochondriacs don't claim or wish for...Our "work" is to take care of ourselves and each other and like Motel 6..keep the lights burning for the next soul that comes to seek help.
Understood. Maybe I didn't say it quite right, but thanks for the correction. All I really meant was that in any fair competition, especially over time, and provided good information, I think Christ will always win out. But the main job of AA, and one they MUST confine themselves to, is simply staying sober. That really HAS to be their near exclusive focus, and the "higher power," however one chooses to recognize it, is merely a part of the path toward sobriety. It doesn't have to even be a "god" of ANY kind. And it's their focus and allowance of whatever won't run folks off and back to the bottle that helps them work their awesome work with so many.
The finding of faith in Christ will always be an offshoot, really, of what they do. For some, especially those in the throes of real addiction, you'll never get them to Christ if they don't stop drinking, so that's one reason it's a "step" program, as I understand it. The 12 steps have surely done some amazing things for an awful lot of people. After they get sober, they've STILL got a lot of living (hopefully) left to do, and at least if they're sober, they are SO much more likely not to kill others and find Christ and so many, many more things. If they're not sober, they won't get to do any of those things.
I just admire what you folks do, and I know several who are devoutly Christian who found their faith due to AA. That ain't no small thing!
I have a friend (won't "trade on his name") but a very well known man that is a highly devout Christian and openly expresses his faith...he's one of the toughest men on the face of the earth and comes from a place very far from anything good but today he simply exudes his Christian faith in everything he does...we have had a number of discussions about faith over the years and in a very good natured way he asked me my "position" on Christianity and of Jesus. I told him of my background in the church and then of my pathway to the faith that I have and my beliefs...he chuckled and said "Well, being a good born again Christian I now have to label you..it's what we do"...he then said "you are a Pagan"..wow...I told him he was being a bit harsh and he said "at least you are in good company...because the way I've catagorized you it places you in the same light as a Rabbi, a Shaman, a Buddhist and so on"....we had a good chuckle about that and both agreed..as we always had...that neither of us had much worth or chance and about the same time in life we each found a path that led us to our place today.
I probably got a little over board discussing too much of AA things...we are a tiny percentage of the population..I have no idea what the actual % numbers are regarding how many people are alcoholic, how many seek a different way of life and how many actually find recovery...but the numbers are not large. There are many ways to get and stay sober...we have no corner on sobriety..I only know that I tried many things and finally found my way in the Fellowship.
I've had the question asked "what is the God part of AA?"..That is a bit like asking what is the round side of a basketball. I have no argument with anyone that is on their path and I also don't condemn anyone that has not found a way to have a better life as their time may be in the next minute, week or year..we never know...I had no chance...none...but here I am....as I am. Now I'm going to write a check to Trump and go to bed.
Last edited by opos; 05-31-2016 at 11:03 PM.
AA is a good program .
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