need help with p-14 enfield initial case forming

[Andy]

I have read a few threads on using an 0-ring on the first firing of .303 brass in an enfield in order to reduce the jump the brass makes to hit the bolt face (don't know the term for this) on the first firing that costs you so much in brass life later. I have read the thread and gather the ideal thing is a flat o-ring, I have a pretty good assortment of round o-rings (one of which fits he case and chambers well) and a small assortment of flat o-rings (one almost fits but I can't close the bolt unfortunately). So, my only on-hand option is a round o-ring.

My question is: is there an o-ring spec size I can order online that usually works for these? I saw "#5 o ring" mentioned but I'm not having any luck searching with that.

Or should I just use the normal round o-ring I have on hand? Some people have said the flat ones last forever and the round ones are destroyed every shot, so if that is true I want to get the right flat one.

This is a p-14 enfield with non-matching bolt which fails a .303 brit "field" test gauge. If I wanted to wade into the realm of conjecture I would say it "just barely fails" by the feel of it when I turn the bolt on the gauge, but I am a novice going off internet descriptions of what it should feel like so take that with a grain of salt. Rifle was fired many times as-is with factory jacketed ammo before I bought it, but I don't want to make any assumptions with how I use it and want to be careful.

With the cost of .303 brass now I want to get the most out of it that I can, any thoughts toward that end are much appreciated. I have mostly unknown-origin once fired (new to me as once fired, unfired in my gun) brass at this point.

Thanks,
Andy

[WineMan]

P14's generally have pretty tight chambers compared to MkIII and MIV's. The action also has lots of leverage and can easily overcome a headspace gauges tolerance. I would neck size and fire a few and see how they compare to unfired. The P14 should be able to chamber almost anything fired in another 303. That said, neck size afterwards and you should be good to go. You will probably need a 0.314 bullet for accuracy. If you could fire a few factory jacketed and get some case measurements from your rifle that would be good knowledge to have.

Dave

[Andy]

Thanks dave, glad to hear your thoughts on the p-14 vs other enfields as I know they are very different. Can you give me any idea on exactly how much force to use on the bolt handle when testing the HS gauge? That is a big area of uncertainty for me.

My bore slugged at .3095 so I am in the lucky few who have an undesized bore and can shoot normal .308 bullets. I am sizing .311 for my savage .308 so I can use that same die and hopefully even the same mold for the enfield thankfully.

Any thoughts on the 0-ring thing, round vs flat?

[M-Tecs]

Jam the bullet into the rifling or neck up to 35 cal and partially size back to 30 cal to form a shoulder.

After fire forming don't bump the shoulder back more than .002".

Other methods here http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...for-303-s.html

Headspace gauges are hardened steel and they do not compress. Normal to medium bolt pressure is all you want. If you try to force it you risk galling.

[leadman]

You can also use a fast powder like Unique (around 13grs) and fill the case with Cream of Wheat cereal. I tap the case lightly to settle the cereal and put a wax or boolit lube plug in the mouth to keep the contents in. If possible raise the gun towards the sky and fire it. If the cases do not fully form increase the powder charge until they do, usually a couple of more grains should do it.
Making a false shoulder and seating a bullet/boolit out so it engraves into the rifling will also work, but you might not be able to hit the rifling!

[Andy]

Thanks for the ideas everyone, lots of good info.

I tested some bullet fits using dummy rounds today, couldn't get the lyman 311041 (174 gr flat nose) to chamber until it was way too far down in the case so abandoned that idea. Next tried the 311294 (maybe 284 can't remember), this is the 210gr bore ride nose bullet. That seemed to fit quite nicely, I set it up to where the bolt closes with a little effort and the rifling (or throat not sure) is engaging the bullet to help keep it snug against the bolt face. I have six oddball cases so I've sized and primed those and will load them up with unique tomorrow and shoot them to form the cases.

I'll probably avoid the o-ring thing unless this doesn't work or I come across some brand new brass to try it on.

Any recommendations on what amount of unique is necessary to adequately fireform the cases with a 210gr bullet (.002 over bore size, coww+2%tin, water dropped, rough bore)?

m-tecs that's a great link, I was there recently and learned a lot from that same thread

[curator]

Andy,

10 grains of Unique is adequate for fire-forming new brass. Jamming the bullet into the rifling will work as good as using the "O" ring to keep the case head against the bolt face--assuming you have at least some neck tension. What is required is that all of the case expansion be from the mid-case out to the shoulder and case neck, rather than stretching the case head. Sometimes simply oiling the case shoulder and first 1 inch of the case will suffice--depending on your particular chamber. .303 British chambers were mostly made a bit on the large side to accommodate ALL ammo made throughout the Empire. Some of these armouries were a bit sloppy to say the least, hence the large chambers. One advantage with the P14 is the extremely strong and inflexible action compared to the Lee Enfield SMLE and No4 Mk1 rifle. Additionally, these rifles were made on high quality U.S. Machinery and have minimal tolerances and so give very good accuracy. You may find that the Lyman bullet mould # 314299 makes the best bullet for excellent accuracy with your rifle at speeds from 1500 to about 1850 fps. This is a gas-check design and needs the check to shoot best. A hardness of about BHN 18-22 will usually be found to give the best accuracy with loads that provide this speed. 16 grains of Alliant 2400 is hard to beat with this bullet in fire-formed brass with no crimp on the cartridge neck, My own Winchester P-14 will shoot easy one-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards off the bench with this combination. YMMV.

[Andy]

curator thank you for taking the time to write that detailed response

earlier today I fireformed 6 cases with 12.0 unique and all went well with that. My air cooled no-gc ones leaded the bore a bit and the water dropped gc ones did not so that lines up with your 18+ brinell advice.

I don't have 2400 but was just given some sr 4759, would that work instead?

My p-14 is a winchester too, they are a nice feeling gun to hold up with a very good trigger for a military rifle in my opinion.

I don't have access to a lyman 314299 but do have access to a 311284 (my bore slugs on the small side so this should be ok for me, see above), would that be a good bet in your opinion?

I never realized how nice a p-14 is until I recently held a regular enfield (not sure on model but had the metal wrist band), the other one felt much more poorly made in comparison.

[Screwbolts]

Andy, The 311041 sounds like the perfect boolit for you to fire form your Bass with. Being the neck of the 303 is rather long or perfect as I see it the 311 pushed hard into your lead should hold the cases tight against the bolt and you will be good to go.

I would be glad to take that barrel off your hands if you were to want a true .308 bore fitted to it and changed it. My P14 before I was its current keeper/caretaker, had an 06 reamer run up the tube from the back and it is another Orphan a 30-06 with a .312 bore. I was young when I bought it many moons ago at an auction for a whooping $125. The Redfield rear peep and the barrel band ramped front sight were worth the money. Yes it is a Remington action and British crown marked barrel that some one stamped 30-06S on the side.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have a similiar problem fireforming cases for my 303 Epps Improved. Tried the "O" rings which were a disaster, wasn't that it didn't work but many cases did not form concentric.

Necking up to .338" then forming a shoulder with the Epps FL die gave much better and consistant results.

[Andy]

Cleaning this today was a bear, been wanting to try out fire lapping so this is going to be my first foray into that. The grooves look like 150 grit sandpaper and seem to have the same effect on lead bullets as sandpaper would. Lands are a little better but they seem like about 320 grit so not by much. Have some LBT lapping compound on the way.

Screwbolts this is just a fun gun that I don't have much budget for, want to keep it original so I won't swap the barrel unless it truly proves useless and some money falls in my lap. No one has altered the gun from original as-issued condition so I plan to leave it as-is as far as permanent mods. Got this one for $80 in the 90's from a family friend, I don't think it had been cleaned since it got to America before I got it.

[WineMan]

Andy,

I am not sure I can answer the force question, The bolt needs to be completely disassembled, only the bolt body. Do you have a "coin" gauge or a cartridge shaped one? It really does not matter. I think the 303 field is 0.074". In my M1917, any resistance over closing on an empty chamber, counts as a "Pass". I have never fire lapped a barrel but my feeling is that as a last resort it may be OK. Just my opinion, easy to take metal off, hard to put it back on. Maybe this is a jacketed rifle, not one for cast? Shoot 100 jacketed, de-copper the bore with Sweet's and do 50 strokes of JB Past on a bore mop from the chamber end (stay away from the throat if possible). Repeat a couple of times and then go back to cast. Fatter is better for sure. You might need a 0.316 cast bullet if it chambers and the neck is not too fat. Shooting cast accurately is not for sissy's. When it works, you will smile.

Dave

[curator]

Andy,
SR4759 is GREAT cast boolit powder! Unfortunately it is also discontinued. Use it while you can get it. It has a similar burn rate to Alliant 2400. Depending on when your Lyman #311284 mould was made it may or may not work well in a .303 British rifle. Most important is the "nose" diameter. I have a single cavity 311284 made about 1950 (in the good old days) and it casts at .305/.314 so it works well with my tighter bore .303s. A friend has a more recently made 311284 mould that casts .299/.306 and it is pretty much useless even in tight .30 caliber rifles.

Fire lapping can help with a rough bore but it can also greatly enlarge the leade or throat if not done properly. If you are getting a LBT fire lapping kit, you need to follow directions quite carefully, particularly where the lapping bullets' hardness is concerned. A BHN of 12 is nearly perfect. Softer and the throat may suffer, harder and you won't get the smoothly tapered bore you need. 2-week-old air-cooled wheel weight alloy is what I have used for excellent results.

[Geezer in NH]

The O ring is not used for headspace.

It is used to keep the case centered in the very large military chambers of the Enfield rifles. I do not know if the P14 has the same problem.

[Andy]

Curator thank you again for the information, I'm really appreciating your informative responses.

Wineman: bore was thoroughly cleaned of copper (about 4 different times to be sure, twice with "wipe out" twice with sweets), I had not mentioned this before so thank you for asking. As far as bullet size: bore slugs at .3095 so I wouldn't put a .316 bullet in this as that is far too large.

Geezer I have heard of the 0-ring used to center the cartridge but I have also read about (see mtecs link in post #4 above) it being used successfully to hold the case back snug against the bolt face in a mismatched bolt over-headspace rifle so that the case experiences far less stretch on the first firing. Results in that post were more than 30 firings of a case so I believe this is a method worth looking into. It also makes sense that in some rifles with large chambers it is primarily used to center the cartridge as you mentioned.

Have some free days coming up this week and I plan to start fire lapping it carefully in 6 round then test increments with lbt lapping compound as per lbt instructions. Curator thanks for the brinell advice, I have some bullets for this that meet the criteria you mentioned so that is convenient. My goal with firelapping is to take off only the tiniest amount (.0005) and see if that makes the bore less abrasive on cast bullets. It looks like sandpaper as is and I'm on the tight side so that's the next step for this gun.

In answer to the original question, I'll be pushing bullets into the rifling in lieu of the o-ring solution (both achieve the same purpose) as it seems like more of a known quantity to do it this way. If I have further issues or issues concerning the bore lapping I'll post another thread on those things separately.

Thanks to all who have helped me in this thread.

Andy

[303Guy]

Cleaning this today was a bear, been wanting to try out fire lapping so this is going to be my first foray into that. The grooves look like 150 grit sandpaper and seem to have the same effect on lead bullets as sandpaper would. Lands are a little better but they seem like about 320 grit so not by much. Have some LBT lapping compound on the way.

I prefer the term 'rust textured bore'. Don't underestimate the value of such a bore. One of my most accurate Lee Enfields has such a bore (very accurate rifle). I did fire lap it so as to remove the sharp edges of the 'texturing'. I load lubed bullets which leave lube in the 'rust texturing'. Never had any copper fouling in it. Unfortunately it is hopeless with cast, it being a two-groove. The rough grooves just cut through lead.

I'd suggest not overdoing the fire lapping.

[Frank46]

For cheap O rings try enco or mcmaster carr online and see what sizes they have available in quantity. The O ring does not have to be made out of anything fancy as its sole purpose is to keep the case up against the face of the bolt. Frank

[EDG]

You might check the case forming forum here. Grumpa hydroforms brass to fill out the shoulder. You might be able to do that so that the shoulder is moved ahead a little more than necessary. Then you can FL size it to fit snug in your chamber.

FYI for the future, .303 Brass made by PPU has the shoulder set further forward so the initial stretch is not so bad. The head is also larger than US brass.