Howa

[Bass Ackward]

Joe,

You always get so confused. I never said that button rifling was not accurate. It is the most accurate method for jacketed. I said that button rifling is not the best for lead because you can't pull a taller button through without heavier equipment or softer steel. And that the button puts chatter marks across the lands and grooves which is also detrimental for lead. When I talk barrels here it is related to lead use.

Joe. All barrel steel in this country is made by exactly 4 manufacturers. Krieger will charge you an extra $50 for a blank if you want 416 stainless because it IS HARDER to machine without screw ups. The higher the number the tougher to machine and hold the tollerances. Plus it takes more time. And the higher the failure rate too. Did they tell you that?

I will see if I have a Savage stainless around the shop. I will send it to you and you play with it and a nail. You won't need a lathe to see what happens.

Shot out has many definitions? Try no rifling at bore diameter just ahead of the throat. Once that occurs, it is shot out in my book. But you would have noticed it way earlier for lead.

JoeB has shot competitively for a day or two. If he says that he watched his throat lengthen, I figure that his throat lengthened. He shoots nothing but commercial lino and mono, so I doubt that he has a contamination problem. But bear in mind that was just a 223. I know my 06 Remington stainless has lengthened about .200. And that's only around 1500 rounds.

All lead that contains antimony is abrassive.

Ah Joe? You said Shilean was heasitant to say anything? Did they claim that THEY used 416 too?

[StarMetal]

Bass,

Scratching a Savage stainless barrel with a nail and maching it are too different things. Also you're right and wrong both about maching 416. Out of the stainless steels availiabe 416 machines better a reason it's chosen for rifle barrels. Stainless as compared to other metal has it's unique machinging qualities.

Know whatelse Shilen said about the two penny nail statement? He said "So what".


Now who's confused? If you reread my post I said: Shilen wasn't reluctant, as in was not, to discuss or say anything.

Joe

[David R]

This was the first rifle I bought. I loaded the crap out of it. I hunted wood chucks with a 115 grain boolit at about 3500 fps. I used IMR 4831, 7828 (for heavy boolits) and H450. The chamber did not line up perfectly so I used to put the rounds in the same way by the case so the bolt would open after the shot was fired. Flat primers were normal to me then. Sticky bolt and extraction were normal too.

No I did not know anything about breaking in a barrel. I was a beginner, and thought faster was better. I did make some amazing shots. I missed a lot too. The longer I had the gun, the longer I could load the boolits. I didn't shoot cast then at all in a rifle. I did clean it occasionally, not like I clean my rifles now. This rifle was a victom of abuse.

I shot a lot of targest with it, and carried it for deer, but never shot one with it.

I have grown a lot since then and wouldn't think of using a gun in the same way. In MY opinion, any rifle would not stand that kind of abuse.

Last year when I bought my 22-250, I was looking at a used remington of the same caliber that had no rifling at the muzzle. The price was the same as the new one I ended up buying.

David

[StarMetal]

David,

That is all the questions I have for this witness. Attorney Bass, you may question the witness.

Next witness please.

Thanks David, youre right, not many rifles would stand up to that abuse. We'll strike your comments from the court record.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Did the rifle continue to shoot accurately as the throat degraded?

What prompted you finally to dump it?

I copper fouled my 7 Mag once at the throat area with a protracted shooting session and it exibited the rough brush feel for about an inch and a half up from the throat when I tried to clean it. I soaked it in #10 Copper Cutter for several weeks and got the fouling out finally by going after it with curly kate wrapped bronze brush just like I was going after advanced case of leading (lots of elbow grease and angry persistance).

Mine cleaned up and I was careful not to shoot more than a shot or two without some dwell time for cooling after that. It cleaned up fine afterwards as long as I was reasonable with the duty cycle.

I was always afraid I had damaged it by the dreaded flame erosion, but I don't believe that was the case -- I had just copper fouled the crap out of it in the rifling engraving zone.

I think 7 mag is a bit too intense of a round, noisy & touchy for barrel heat & fouling -- ergo I bought a 7mm-08 that would be more "reasonable" in its habits. I do like the 7mm ballistics, they simply work better than 30 cal at any given bullet weight.

Oldfeller

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

Scratching a Savage stainless barrel with a nail and maching it are too different things. Also you're right and wrong both about maching 416. Out of the stainless steels availiabe 416 machines better a reason it's chosen for rifle barrels. Stainless as compared to other metal has it's unique machinging qualities.

Know whatelse Shilen said about the two penny nail statement? He said "So what".


Joe

Joe,

I lost my dignity, my pride and 20 dollars on the nail stunt because I knew I was right. I remember it all the time. And when I don't the guys remind me.

The reason 416 stainless is popular for stainless is that it can take high pressures without being 1" in diameter. That's the real reason.

And maybe David is right on with his point. Maybe many Savage owners are early in their reloading careers. I never had a guy bring a rifle in for re-barreling that said he contributed to the problem. Good point David. But on the other hand, there are guys like Joe that was competing. So the saga continues.

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller,

If I had to reccomend an all around 7mm caliber it would be the Remington 280. We all know how good the 270 is and the 280 is just about identical.

Bass,

If you have any 7mm barrels laying around I wouldn't mind having one, in chromo blue as I'm thinking about working on another idea and project.

Joe

[David R]

Did the rifle continue to shoot accurately as the throat degraded?

As far as I remember, it shot about the same. Nothing great. However that was 15 years ago or so.

What prompted you finally to dump it?

You answered your own question.

I think 7 mag is a bit too intense of a round, noisy & touchy for barrel heat & fouling .

Oldfeller

More gun than I needed and I figured the barrel was on its way out.

David

[Bass Ackward]

Know whatelse Shilen said about the two penny nail statement? He said "So what".
Joe

Joe,

The "So what" statement bothered me until I understood. And he is right.

I had to go back to a jacketed thought process to understand. Stainless and chrome moly for that matter are made so it will heat treat. The harder a barrel is, the longer it takes to break in. So if no heat treatment is made, the bore will smooth up faster. Shooting performs the heat treatment. And the heat treatment occurs where it matters most, in the bore. What wear has occured to this point is caused by the bullet and get's to as good a point as a lapped barrel if you had tight tollerances to begin with. You are in effect fire lapping your barrel. This is considered a manageable and acceptable part of the process considering you want the reputation of "Out of the Box. Plus you wanted the bullet to finish your work for ya.

Not a bad thought process really. For jacketed. And obviously the Shilean thought process as well because because they advocate five breakin shots and then tell you to start load development. It also explains why stainless breaks in faster than chrome moly.

The problem is that I could not clearly state, that most guys that buy a rifle to shoot cast, shoot cast in it. In fact, you will have some guys that will brag a jacketed bullet has never seen their bore. Cast does not heat treat. It is softer and it is lubricated. So the heat from friction does not materialize. The heat treatment that gun company A was counting on, does not occur. Wear continues until some further point when they finally fire enough lead or shoot some jacketed. Who knows where that point is? And do they ever fire it? JoeBs throat continued to erode for 3000 rounds. Was it ready to stop? Would it?

So we say "who cares", we are shooting cast that is gentle on the bore. Yea, but the powder gasses aren't. And most throat erosion and muzzle erosion is caused by powder gases and impact. The muzzle erosion is more of a problem for me because I can seat out my bullet or go to a heavier one. Sell my old (or custom) mold. But I can't compensate for the blunderbus effect without cutting and recrowning. (And now that I think about it, I had to do that on my stainless Remington.) If a guy has a custom bore ride design as JoeB had, it will never fit right again.

So if you bought a new rifle just to shoot cast, you didn't get what you thought you would. Unless you shoot a couple of hundred rounds of jacketed before you fit the mold. And you are left with hope that heat treatment is completed. The guy that bought the harder barrel probably still has closer to his origional dimensions and stands a better chance of shooting softer bullets more accurately. Asssuming he had good dimensions to start with.

Now comes the argument, all I have to do then to solve that problem is to shoot a bunch of jacketed first. Well, OK. But you still are going to get more wear until it stops. This explains Fleix's point about us getting a benchresters barrel after he is finished with it. Cut some off the back and some off the muzzle, rechamber it and you have a superior barrel. He makes an excellent point. If you can find a barrel long enough to finish up like you want it. It also explains why they lose the accuracy edge at 1000 rounds shooting just cast.

My argument is , why not minimize wear from the start? Use a barrel that is harder and machined to good tollerances in the first place? Then let a few jacketed finish the burnishing job. Less chance for cleaning damage or anything else Murphy can throw at you? Which barrel is better for cast? The Savage may still perform more accurately if it is destined to be a better barrel. For jacketed, who cares if you lost .001 off your rifling height. In fact, you will throw less pressure for the same load if you did. A good thing huh?. For a cast rifle though, where you had plans for higher velocity cast, it does make a difference. To me anyway.

[joeb33050]

He also said that he sincerely doubts that you will shoot a Savage out in 800 rounds. He went on to ask what the fellow that made statement describes as shot out? He also doubted that shooting 3000 cast bullets throught a 223 Savage would move the throat forward. Brownells gunsmith techs said the same things...yeah I talked to them too. They both agreed that the only way that could happen was to have contaminated lead alloy with some kind of abrasive in it, and possibly by not cleaning the rifle at all, but still doubted it. Now they said you could do it with lapping rounds.
Joe

I keep meticulous records and know that the throat = max OAL moved forward in 3000 rounds in my 12BVSS 223. John Alexander, VP of CBA has also mentioned this happening.
Had the same thing happen in a Rem 700 BDL Varmint 222, no bullet would be in the case and touch rifling in 8000 rounds(jacketed), accuracy declined after 3000, and light handloads. At 8000 it would shoot 3" 10 shot 200 yard groups, my wife used it for offhand.
Several serious HP shooters mentioned throat erosion/barrel life concerns.
The argument about stainless vs not stainless barrels and cut vs forged vs button rifled goes on-nobody here has said anything advancing the argument of either side, opinions don't convince me-data = records do.
Why listen to guys argue who have never shot the rifle in question to throat movement? Like nuns arguing about sex.
joe b.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

I can live with your last post and agree with it. You remember I built the 260 Rem on that Arisaka action. Well I indeed did shoot a couple hundred jacketed through it first and I did use a breakin procedure. I had figured that Shaw cut the rifling but found out it was button rifling. I was expecting the bore to be rougher then what it was. In fact it was quite smooth.

You know on the Savage website they have a procedure for barrel breakin. I haven't noticed that on Remingtons or Winchesters page, although I admit I haven't really looked for it. So it was interesting that Savage has one and it's quite intense.

Probably somemore interesting stuff that I talked to Shilen about that I know your ears will perk up about is rifling type and dept for cast bullets only. He agreed whole heartly that button isn't the best for cast, that it's mainly a jacketed type rifling and that deep cut rifling would be the best for cast. He said one reason he doesn't and perhaps other barrel makers don't make deep rifling of anykind is because of the friction increase thus pressure issues. He assured me that he could making button rifling deeper if that is wanted. He also said that he will make deep rifling, and I think of anykind, to your specs. Interesting. It's easy to see why deep rifling would increase friction and pressure.

Good conversation fellows.

Joeb---Nuns...don't give none, don't get none. Also what's black and white, and red all over? A nun rolling down a hill. A newspaper is black and white and read all over too.

Joe aka Starmetal

[45 2.1]

Quite a discussion! Just what accuracy are you guys getting out of these super duper barrels that can't be gotten out of a military rifle that does have the old cut deep groove rifling? You'd be better off getting deep groove rifling and a custom throat reamer to match your boolits. That way you'd learn faster.

[felix]

Joe, the real culprit for the pressure rise is not the land height as Ed Shilen indicated, but in the chamber necks which are too tight to release the boolit fast enough for the powder/primer combo. You can get away with shooting a 308 boolit through a 284 bore using sloppy chambers and the slowest of powders. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix

If you have two barrels with the proper chamber dimensions, including the necks and one say one has standard industry button rifling and the other has cut rifling with real deep groove, say .005 with normal bore dimension for whichever cartridge, AND you load two cartridges exactly the same, which barrel will show the highest pressure? In you example of shooting a 308 through a sloppy 284 bore using a really slow powder essentially has low pressure characteristics to start with.

Are you trying to tell me that if you have a rifle with with tall lands that the bullet needs a headstart? That may be so, but back to the original, lets not even shoot the bullet, but drive it through the barrel with a rod. Which barrel will you be able to drive the bullet through easier: the standard button rifled type or the very tall land cut type? I'd say the button rifled one would be easier.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, a rod you are talking about is essentially a boolit having length equal to the barrel's length, right? That being the situation, your current synopsis is absolutely correct. The pressure required would always be that to overcome the static inertia of the boolit which would last until the last part of the rod had entered the grooves entirely. The name of the game is overcomming static inertia, and that is always more than a boolit's dynamic inertia, and fortunately most boolits are short enough not to cause excitement. Things become unglued very fast when that inertia cannot be overcome in the time required before any kind of peak enclosure pressure is reached (blowing the action, etc.). ... felix

[PatMarlin]

Heck... I'm hysterically happy with my Howa honey..

How canya hardly argue with that?

[Bass Ackward]

Why listen to guys argue who have never shot the rifle in question to throat movement? Like nuns arguing about sex.
joe b.

All,

Spent yesterday doning some measuring. Found that throat wear on my 30-06 Remington stainless has indeed moved, and more than I thought. It has moved more from 1000 rounds of cast than from 500 rounds of fairly hot jacketed when I fitted my first custom mold. Now this is scarry because 500 rounds should have completed the heat treatment process. Obviously I can't compare accuracy this soon. Then again I don't expect it to have dropped off because I just reestablish fit by seating out. I don't shoot bore ride designs. But this rifle did have to be re-crowned to get it to shoot as well as it does. I thought it was a faulty corwn from the start as Remington is famous for them.

I think that maybe we have a worse situation than jacketed shooters deal with. "IF" .... throat erosion is being caused by hot powder slaming into the throat, then our errosion is going to be faster and more intense than someone shooting jacketed at the same pressure. Why? Because out cast bullet presents less friction and moves out sooner in the same weight. That means less powder burns in the case than a jacketed of the same pressure and is available to do it's work. And this is another reason to have good material in your barrel and for it to be heat treated from the start.

Another good reason from the ol'timers to shoot the heaviest cast bullets for caliber. Then what friction can't do for ya, inertia will about keeping powder burning in the case. Another old time adage comes to mind, use faster powders. Maybe some of this out dated information isn't so out dated?


Joe,

Shilean is under new management and they are coming back. We do a lot of dealing with those guys. Glad to see they have a lead depeartment. That I did not know. And they "can" use taller buttons. I never said that it was physically impossible to do. But since you are imprinting instead of removing metal, it would also get harder to hold tollerances at some point without going to "softer" metal. Where that point is I don't know. What is the cost? Did you ask?

And yes the military rifles have taller rifling. Taller rifling will throw more pressure with jacketed if all things are equal. Pressure is cut by increasing the groove diameter. My "guess" is that's why you commonly get larger bores in 30 caliber in military rifles. That's how they compensate for it. It wasn't because they couldn't hold the tollerances.


Bob,

You are correct. My 458 is great. Every "cast" barrel I get from now on will have taller rifling. Of coarse this forces me to cut riflers that can perform this farely economically. Unless Joe asks the question.

[45 2.1]

And yes the military rifles have taller rifling. Taller rifling will throw more pressure with jacketed if all things are equal. Pressure is cut by increasing the groove diameter. My "guess" is that's why you commonly get larger bores in 30 caliber in military rifles. That's how they compensate for it. It wasn't because they couldn't hold the tollerances.

That exact thing was bandied about in the late 50's about 8mm mausers and the hot, by our standards, loads that the Europeons had for them. That balance of tall lands and larger bore was ideal for what they did.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, just for the record, I decided that I wanted to measure all of the throats on my cast guns and did that today. I was disappointed to see how little information I had about this important issue. While I can tell how many rounds of what was fired, I have no record of throat length from which to draw any conclusions unless the rifles were used to fit custom molds. My wife's Howa was not one of those. So I can't state how her barrel is holding up other than to say that her throat is still considerably shorter than my Remington. Both of which are stainless.

So I decided that it was important enough for me to establish a record and then at some point in the future be able to talk from from actual experience the next time someone asks a serious question like this.

[PatMarlin]

How are you measuring the throats John?