Experience with Paper Patched .357 Magnum in a carbine?

[PerpetualStudent]

If so, what weight boolit did you use?
What weight would you recommend for deerhunting?

Background:
I'm doing research to choose a .357 lever action. One of the uses will be for hunting whitetails in WI. When I stumbled on paper patching or paper jacketing soft lead to magnum (or full size rifle) velocities I really liked the idea. Soft lead expanding but keeping together for good penetration- I've been impressed with the paper patched results I've seen. So that seemed the perfect thing to let me have a firearm to plink with or turn into a real deerslayer. However, I've run into the fact that different rifling in the Rossi and Marlin and Henry stabilizes different weights of bullets. Since for hunting I do want to use a paper patched boolit- this question needs to be answered in order for me to choose my lever action. I searched the forum but only came up with paper patching the .357 maximum and paper patching in a revolver- so importantly different from my planned use.

[longbow]

Not .357 mag but I paper patched for my 1894 in .44 mag quite successfully. I had no problems with feeding, patch tearing or anything like that. In short it worked well.

Mine is microgroove and I found I had to size the boolit to less than land diameter for good success which is a bit contrary to the usual requirement of bore diameter to about 1 thou over bore diameter. For microgroove rifling the paper would have to be awfully thin to use a boolit of bore diameter due to such shallow grooves.

Just something to think about when choosing the gun.

Hopefully someone with first hand experience with .357 will chime in.

Longbow

[PerpetualStudent]

Google has not been kind in returning .357 specific paper patching info. But if someone has done it I think this forum has the best chance of finding that person

Since the .44mag also has a range of bullet weights, did you find that bullet weight mattered? Or are the main factors just bore and groove diameters?

[Nobade]

Yes, I have done that quite a bit. I have a Browning '92 and though I normally shoot it with naked bullets and black powder, I have done quite a bit with smokeless and paper patched bullets as well.

The thing with doing this is the throat on 357 mag lever guns is quite long and large. The paper patched bullet needs to be jammed into the rifling a bit, which makes for a very long overall length of the loaded round. This works very well as a single shot, but makes it way too long to cycle through the action.

The performance is quite good. With bullets seated out that far, there is quite a bit of room for powder. It is no big trick to equal 357 maximum ballistics and these loads turn a 357 mag levergun into a viable 200 yard rifle. You can use a variety of powders, but I found Lil' Gun to work best in my rifle. I used 200 grain or so rifle bullets, either the RCBS 200FN or the Ranch Dog 190. I also have a BRP mould that throws a .351" diameter, 215 gr. bullet that is about perfect for this. And as you have surmised, you can use pure lead or something just a little harder to good effect.

If you choose a Rossi rifle, keep in mind it has a rather slow rate of twist. 175gr. bullets are about the limit of what it will shoot accurately. The Marlin, Browning, and others will handle much heavier bullets.

It does work well, and would certainly kill deer quite effectively. Enjoy your new journey!

-Nobade

[longbow]

I paper patched a few weights of boolits but my main goal was a 300 gr. TC boolit from a home made mould. The paper patching worked great and 50 yard accuracy was way better than with my Lyman 429421 which cast undersize for my Marlin anyway.

Unfortunately the 300 gr. TC's were going sideways by 100 yards. this was a blunt TC design with large meplat and loaded over a max charge of H110.

Subsequent testing of several cast boolits and even Hornady "J" bullet at 300 grs. that 1:38" twist was not fast enough.

I wound up reducing weight and found that about 270 grs. seemed to be the max weight that would stabilize reliably out to 100 yards and beyond... for me anyway.

I deviated from the paper patching story but nothing new there!

I did paper patch for some lighter boolits of 240 and 265 gr. and IIRC the patch couldn't extend very far beyond the case mouth due to lack of throat. This sounds contrary to what Nobade is saying about the .357 version of the Marlin having a very long throat. Makes one wonder why they would make one with short/no throat and one with long throat. I understand the .444's also have almost no throat.

Possibly that short patch outside the case mouth contributed to good feeding and no patch tearing.

That info doesn't really help you though. Likely my only contribution is the observation that microgroove rifling requires a slightly different approach than standard depth/style rifling with smaller boolit diameter... or that worked best for me anyway. I settled on a boolit of 0.421" diameter patched to 0.432". If memory serves, the bore diameter is 0.425" and groove is 0.4315" in my barrel. So roughly 3 1/4 thou deep rifling.

Having said that, I am not sure what the rifling choices are with the .357. Seems to me all Marlins were microgroove many years ago but I am not positive of that and I have not heard whether all Marlins now have "deep cut Ballard rifling". Personally I like the microgroove rifling. Both my .44 mag has it and my long gone but much loved 1895 in .45-70 had microgroove rifling. Both guns like it.

Longbow

[Nobade]

Longbow, it is interesting that your Marlin 44 mag has a very short throat. My 44, made in 1975 I believe, has a very long throat with no step at the end of the chamber. It is just like the 357 in that a 240gr. bullet is barely in the case in order to make contact with the rifling. It does shoot quite well though, with bullets patched to .434" and seated way out. Just can't eject a loaded round, have to either shoot it or use a screwdriver to pull the extractor off the rim to allow the cartridge to fall out. You're right, the 444 and 45-70 have almost no throat.

-Nobade

[PerpetualStudent]

Excellent information guys. I appreciate it.

My understanding is that in .357 Magnum, Rossi gives a slow twist which works well for driving 158 grain boolits as fast as you want but doesn't stabilize bigger boolits very well.

I had been going between Rossi and Henry since the used Marlin market has gotten stupid expensive. You can buy a new Chiappa for what an old Marlin commands and I can't justify a grand on a lever action. That left me going between the Henry and the Rossi, and if the faster twist in the Henry will stabilize a wider variety of boolits, that seems to be a better choice for me.

[longbow]

Nobade:

I will double check my .44 but as I recollect I couldn't have a lot of paper outside the case mouth.

Possibly it was throat diameter vs patched diameter but the patched boolits shot well anyway even if somewhat oversize (if that was the case).

The chamber is very sloppy and I can chamber unsized boolits of at least 0.435". In fact I used to simply seat 0.440" round balls with the equator just below the case mouth and shoot those. They chambered just fine. Sometimes a very small amount of lead was shaved from the equator and the balls were certainly swaged at the equator some but they chambered and shot well with light loads. I never checked swaged diameter to see what it was but they were large because the case mouth bulged.

Anyway, my memory is fading with age so I will check on the chamber and throat to be sure. That the boolits fed with no problems and shot well I remember clearly, loading details maybe not.

Longbow

[Nobade]

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't change chambering specs over time. I have TC Contenders like that, both 357 mag and one has a very short throat and shoots normal loads well. The other has a very long and large throat and only shoots with bullets seated way out. I would think having one like yours would be much more desirable since it should be much easier to find a good load for.

-Nobade

[Lonegun1894]

I haven't PPd for it, but I can tell you that my Rossi 92 .357 loves 158gr SWCGCs, and shot just as well with some 170gr cast I tried it it, but the accuracy fell apart when I tried 180s in it. I just stick with 158s and they work great.

For what it's worth, I PP for my H&R Handi-rifle in .44 Mag. I size a SWC to .425", PP, and size to .434" for that one. Slugs at .424"/.4325".